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Otter petition.

Graham Elliott said:
Slight change of subject, though relevant as this has moved on.
What outcomes from the Teme research. Seems to have been ages since it started. Any prelim info.

Anything that could show causative reasons for sudden barbel decline?

(Probably cant show flooding pushed them into Severn)
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Don't know Graham....I left before any proper detail was produced..... woody bloody debris was the in thing then........ the person I was talking about has the same name as a town in Berkshire.......
 
Here's a post that might allow some to remove their blinkers..... smell the coffee..... whatever......


Keith Leech
Yesterday at 12:16 ·


SAVE THE OTTER

The European Otter “Lutara Lutra”; a beautiful member of the mustelid family; an intelligent creature that is ruthlessly efficient at hunting. Capable of taking prey many times its size both on land and in the water; they hunt all types of amphibians, water fowl and fish and are a beautiful site on our water ways. Nearly wiped out in UK through the mid part of last century due to farming practices and lack of water cleanliness, and since a re-introduction programme it has started to make a rapid comeback and is now in every county up and down the land. So why you say save the otter? The otter needs saving from its own success and the current inability of the natural water ways to support its population explosion.

River water quality has improved over the last twenty years there is no doubt about that. Environmental controls put on farming and industry has gone a long way but there is still a long way to go. In years gone by our rivers had lots of eel and fish that is now hard to come across in numbers. Silver fish and fingerlings of all description are in decline through over predation; cormorants have moved in land and decimate them; the goosander and alien cray fish decimate the small fish that can no longer grow in to large ones; all this the staple diet of the otter. The stocks on the rivers are low and some critically, some have literally been wiped out from predation and are barren in comparison to only 10 years ago. The balance in the river eco system is just not there; even on the river banks the vole is in decline and so is some bird life due to another mustelid; the Mink that has all the attributes of the otter in a small package an illegal immigrant foolishly released and now thriving and destroying our native creatures.

Me I am an angler. Those that do not partake will never get it. Those that do angle, live it and breath it. It's not a hobby to most nor a passion, it’s an obsession a heathy one at that. We sample the outdoors and fresh air, and many are very in touch with the local wildlife. For me the trouble with us facing predation pressure is that angling is disjointed; we have carp specialists, barbel and river specialists; we have the father and son duo’s that enjoy some summer fun; we have those with a fly rod and those that chase predators. It goes on, it’s huge, but it’s that fragmentation for me that is one of the issues behind inaction. Each specialism is often separate from the other and so are the bodies that champion them; each with a friendly rivalry that looks cross eyed at the other; a rivalry that we need to turn in to brotherhood; a brotherhood that needs to sit at the same table and create one voice; a loud well-informed voice, a voice with reason and we need to make that voice heard.

My title, save the Otter will send a shiver down the spine of most anglers. The despised creature sitting at the top of a pyramid of destruction that is badly hurting their passion. Some are lucky and can fish in an Alcatraz; a venue protected by security fencing and locked gates; not the wildest of environments for those that love the outdoors, but it works in some cases. I say “some” as many places cannot afford this or get permission for this and they are left at the mercy of the torrent of predators with finally the otter being big enough and ruthless to kill the fish that are too big for the others and kill them they do! The big fish go to waste as the otter only eats a portion. The rivers are nearly devoid of its normal food sources, so they raid the big stock that they are capable of killing. They eat little of that big kill and leave dead large carcasses strewn across the banks with mere mouthfuls taken. In low fish locations they turn on the birds; a swan is easily over powered, geese and nesting sites. It is all well filmed and photographed, though the angling community needs to get better at providing dates and locations. A central Library is much needed; the evidence of destruction needs to have a parity graph of monetary cost, so economic losses can be attributed and not just passion and anger. This is the broad evidence we are missing to add weight to our argument.

I say save the otter as it needs just that; it needs saving from itself and own rapid comeback. A lovely creature and a pleasure to see yet bitterly unsustainable in the current climate. I say save it because if action is not taken it will get wiped out through frustration. The fine for killing an otter is up to £5000; that pales into insignificance the cost of the specimen fish they kill. A farmer can protect his sheep from the dog, does anybody really believe that anglers do not protect theirs? Watching multi thousands of pounds worth of stock that take 20, 30, even 40 years to grow get destroyed in weeks as the otter moves in. The slim chance of a fine weighted against protecting a livelihood that feeds a family, pays the bills and mortgage is a no brainer; weighted against a venue and an obsession you have childhood memories on, a personal best capture or a target you’ve had your heart on. Illegal yes, immoral…that depends on what side of the fence you sit but will happen all the same.

I will say what many do not want to say openly and that is a limited cull! A cull based on evidence and carried out by professionals a limited cull to save angling and the otter. The pyramid of predation is too great and the otter is quickly destroying venues that cannot be fenced and the rivers of the specimen sized stock they held, that is the futures breeding fish! I want to see the otter and angling live side by side; right now it is not and action needs to be taken to protect both. Angling cannot sustain the predation and the predation will not survive the wrath of the angler if left unresolved much longer.

I suggest a cull as part of a large scale long term plan, purely targeted to areas and locations that are being decimated. In tandem with that, consultation and work need to be done with the EA to re-establish healthy populations of fish in the rivers and again manage the right level of predators in the pyramid; balance can be gained with work and effort from all sides. Angling needs a voice, a joined-up voice, that will work with the RSPB, EA and Otter Trust.

Equilibrium can be found I do not doubt it, but the current head in the sand approach by some on the wildlife side is frustrating the angler, leaving them at times with the difficult decision to protect a livelihood or a venue of love. The angler is one of the few members of society that pays in to the EA annually in the form of a rod licence, millions of pounds and millions of voices that should be heard; they pay for that right annually for sure!

So yes, save the otter; work together to come together; get a big voice informed with fact and evidence. The wildlife enthusiasts should look at both sides of the fence as so should the angler. The otter to the angler is not going away but needs to be managed! To the wildlife enthusiast the angler is here to stay and working with them will help save the beautiful Lutra Lutra from itself.
 
Your loosing the plot Rich, so you fully support an otter cull and this chap thinks wildlife groups will work anglers when they call for a cull...cloud cuckoo land.
 
Some good pints there. I’ve said it before and il say it again, if you want to take down superman you need a solid gold case. The otter is hearalded as a poster boy of environmental improvement, we as Angler’s who look below the surface know thier success is often at best indifferent to the aquatic environment below. Otters are impacted mostly secondarily to water quality. They don’t breathe water. That’s a hard fight to change that perception though.

What we must do is work with other wildlife areas and make it clear that share an end goal. A healthy sustainable environment. Something that we currently don’t have. I’ve sat on the fence and confused myself a fair bit in the topic but now I know what il reply next time I’m asked about how I feel about otters. “Im not anti otter, I’m pro fish.”
 
Stephen Crowhurst said:
Some good pints there. I’ve said it before and il say it again, if you want to take down superman you need a solid gold case. The otter is hearalded as a poster boy of environmental improvement, we as Angler’s who look below the surface know thier success is often at best indifferent to the aquatic environment below. Otters are impacted mostly secondarily to water quality. They don’t breathe water. That’s a hard fight to change that perception though.

What we must do is work with other wildlife areas and make it clear that share an end goal. A healthy sustainable environment. Something that we currently don’t have. I’ve sat on the fence and confused myself a fair bit in the topic but now I know what il reply next time I’m asked about how I feel about otters. “Im not anti otter, I’m pro fish.”
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Completely agree. There is a case for using the power of the otter’s protection to help draw meaningful attention to the various issues affecting our rivers. Their food sources are diminishing- rapidly in some places. Only a big voice will gain traction on efforts to deal with some of the key issues and that big voice means strategic collaboration built on common ground and anchor points. Otherwise, there will be no need for lethal or non-lethal methods for controlling otter numbers as it will happen quite naturally. Just look at the work carried out by Cardiff University. I think they examine around 200 dead otters a year, the vast majority of which die as a result of a lethal interaction with fast moving metal.
 
Howard Cooke said:
Their food sources are diminishing- rapidly in some places
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Out of interest on what do you base that on?

The vast majority of southern rivers have alien species crayfish in them literally crawling up the banks and my own opinion based on observation is they are forming a big part of the otters diet and to be honest there is a lot of water in this land with a lot of fish in them still to feed predators.

I've seen otters a fair bit over the years and seen the same one a few times over the last month. The other night I fished a swim I had been trickling bait into for a few days as the water dropped, within 2 casts I had caught a 6lb 1oz chub. after recasting I sat there and 3 decent fish rolled in the swim, one definitely a big bream the other 2 times it was another big chub over my bait.

as it got dark strange noises started coming down the river, I expected another bite but nothing materialised. then under the platform I was sitting on I heard noises and all of a sudden a big lump of clay fell in the water next to me and an otter swam across the river right over my bait...I moved swims, went further down and caught nothing, again the otter swam past me so I called it a night the otter had won and freaked all the fish out.

on the same stretch we have a large stone in the water that otters mark there territory with, graham scholey shown me my first otter spraint on it about 12 years ago and over the years ive always kept an eye on it. some years you don't see otters or any marking the this year there back, but this year in particular the stone is now being used as an anvil where the otters are smashing the crayfish up to get inside them

interesting evening and although I know he's eating fish its just part of fishing in oxford now on the smaller streams and rivers. although its hard going I still catch a few and enjoy it.

i'm not an otter cuddler and i'm fully aware otters are causing serious damage to rivers, just saying we have to think about what really is happening and how it is approasched and ultimately that is based on fact.
 
One theory, regarding the fishing being harder, is that the fish are more reluctant to feed as readily now there's a chance of being caught by an otter.
I can't imagine too many people changing their approach, which in turn leads to their catch rates diminishing.
I'm not saying all the fish are still there and just hiding, but also with fewer fish and less competition they can afford to be more selective.
 
Jason Bean said:
Out of interest on what do you base that on?

The vast majority of southern rivers have alien species crayfish in them literally crawling up the banks and my own opinion based on observation is they are forming a big part of the otters diet and to be honest there is a lot of water in this land with a lot of fish in them still to feed predators.

I've seen otters a fair bit over the years and seen the same one a few times over the last month. The other night I fished a swim I had been trickling bait into for a few days as the water dropped, within 2 casts I had caught a 6lb 1oz chub. after recasting I sat there and 3 decent fish rolled in the swim, one definitely a big bream the other 2 times it was another big chub over my bait.

as it got dark strange noises started coming down the river, I expected another bite but nothing materialised. then under the platform I was sitting on I heard noises and all of a sudden a big lump of clay fell in the water next to me and an otter swam across the river right over my bait...I moved swims, went further down and caught nothing, again the otter swam past me so I called it a night the otter had won and freaked all the fish out.

on the same stretch we have a large stone in the water that otters mark there territory with, graham scholey shown me my first otter spraint on it about 12 years ago and over the years ive always kept an eye on it. some years you don't see otters or any marking the this year there back, but this year in particular the stone is now being used as an anvil where the otters are smashing the crayfish up to get inside them

interesting evening and although I know he's eating fish its just part of fishing in oxford now on the smaller streams and rivers. although its hard going I still catch a few and enjoy it.

i'm not an otter cuddler and i'm fully aware otters are causing serious damage to rivers, just saying we have to think about what really is happening and how it is approasched and ultimately that is based on fact.
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I certainly agree with your final paragraph and I guess it’s easy to fall into the trap of converting our own experiences and observations into fact. I don’t think nearly enough analysis of otter spraint has been carried out (period of time and different rivers) to truly understand their diet and how it may have changed over time. Large sections of the Kennet that I fished until fairly recently seemed utterly devoid of any fish, not just barbel. Stocked trout have put in an appearance plus the odd chub but seemingly not a lot else. Other sections of the Kennet (slower, more canal like) seem to be full of roach. But again, I’m basing this on my own experiences plus those of a few others.

One might explore the changing behaviour of otters and their relatively short life span as evidence of an issue with food source. Are they having to travel more to hunt (and that’s where they are at greater risk of death or conflict with other otters) ? Are otters becoming more urbanised and as such less cautious as they seek alternative food sources? Lots of the evidence might be anecdotal and perhaps we are hearing stories and seeing video clips because of the broader debates taking place. But it might point to an imbalance and if so, it might alert other wildlife groups to consider the issues affecting our rivers (not necessary all). I don’t think that would be a bad outcome for anglers.
 
‎Lawrence Breakspear‎ to Barbel Talk With The Barbel Society
54 mins ·


Petition update.....

We deliberated greatly on the wording of the petition, bearing in mind you only have a limited amount of characters (not words) to introduce the petition and to get your point across, it cannot be defamatory, it cannot incite any action that may be deemed illegal, also, it cannot suggest something that's already covered by current legislation, the restrictions are many, and that's just to get the Parliament office to approve its launch.

If we had used the "Cull" word we believed the petition would not have been approved, as this would be deemed to be unlawful and to be divisive, so we had to come with something that was all inclusive that would appeal to all people and to be honest we didn't want a cull or to suggest the eradication of the Otter, we wanted to create control and to reduce the Otters numbers in specific locations and maybe instigate new legislation.

Non-lethal is a scientific term used in the control of many predators by scientists and biologists across the world, from Russia, to Canada, to Australia via Africa, its methods are eclectic and conserable, and include everything other than killing, it was and is impossible to list all options either on the petition or here, we also did not want to detract from the main thrust of the petition of an awareness of an acute problem by creating argument and debate on particular suggestions of what we see as control, yes there are currently modest non lethal controls that cover stillwaters, but no solutions for rivers, we also saw the ambiguous and vague text of the petition to be its strength..

We have our own suggestions of what we consider to be non lethal and we have a scientist looking at the biggere picture, we will be putting our findings and suggestions to other organisations later in the process.

To all those that have signed and supported the petition so far, we thank you.

Lawrence Breakspear
 
The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “For the introduction of non-lethal means of control of the Otter (Lutra- lutra)”.
Government responded:
While the Government understand concerns raised about the impact otters may have on fish populations, they are a protected species and there are no plans to introduce methods to control their numbers​
The Government understands that there are concerns that otters may have adverse impacts on fish populations and wildlife more generally but we do not accept that the otter ‘has become a detriment to the river environment’.
Mainly as a result of the banning of certain pesticides, otters are now once more present in each county in England. They are an important indicator of the great strides we have made in improving our waterways, with more than 5,300 miles of rivers being improved since 2010. There have been no reintroductions of otters by conservation groups since the late 1990s and the bulk of the recovery of the otter has been through natural re-colonisation.
A healthy otter population results from favourable conditions in the natural environment, including water quality and the availability of prey (including fish), as well as availability of breeding sites. Otters are found at low density, and limit their own populations through territorial activity. Carrying capacity is determined by environmental conditions.
There is no evidence to suggest that otters have a major impact on wildlife as a whole, and although localised impacts could occur where otters have not been previously present for some time, they are a natural part of the freshwater ecosystem and we believe these systems will adapt to the return of the natural top predator.
We do recognise that otters can in some instances impact on still water fisheries, which is why there is provision through the Angling Improvement Fund (AIF), administered by the Angling Trust on the Environment Agency’s behalf, to help deliver improvements including projects to protect fisheries from otter predation through the erection of otter-proof fencing. Further information can be found on the Angling Trust website at: www.anglingtrust.net.
Otters are a protected species and it is an offence to harm capture, kill, disturb or injure any animal and/or damage, destroy or obstruct their resting or sheltering places. Therefore any methods of control, including non-lethal methods, would constitute an offence. A licence may be granted by Natural England to catch and move an otter trapped inside a suitably otter-proof fenced fishery to prevent loss of fish stocks.
Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs​
Click this link to view the response online:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/209735?reveal_response=yes
The Petitions Committee will take a look at this petition and its response. They can press the government for action and gather evidence. If this petition reaches 100,000 signatures, the Committee will consider it for a debate.
The Committee is made up of 11 MPs, from political parties in government and in opposition. It is entirely independent of the Government. Find out more about the Committee: https://petition.parliament.uk/help#petitions-committee
Thanks,
The Petitions team
UK Government and Parliament
 
"they are a natural part of the freshwater ecosystem and we believe these systems will adapt to the return of the natural top predator."

Can't really argue with that.

As an angler I don't particularly want the otter around but the general public will.

We've just got to get on with it :(
 
Glad to see it was the Government's action on banning pesticides that drove the recovery in the otter population. Nothing to do with the reintroduction of the species then...!?!?


Dave
 
Exactly the response I was expecting. The government don't care about the human population,why on earth would they have sympathy for dwindling fish stocks. They probably view rivers with contempt,taking up valuable real estate building land on an already vastly overpopulated island. Perhaps it's their plan all along,get the three P's to decimate the natural waterways,then with all anglers on commercial 'managed' fisheries the sport as a whole will soon die.
 
Dave Durrant said:
"they are a natural part of the freshwater ecosystem and we believe these systems will adapt to the return of the natural top predator."

Can't really argue with that.

As an angler I don't particularly want the otter around but the general public will.

We've just got to get on with it :(
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That sums it up very well. the last few months i've done a lot of late evenings on small rivers around oxford and I would say its almost a 50% chance an otter will come through your swim. I'm still catching some decent fish but not barbel, but that's not the end of the world for me. what does pee me off though it pretty much stops you getting a bite after they've been through, so if you've just got there fed your swims and caught your 1st fish and one does come through you may as well go home.
 
Mark Mole said:
Exactly the response I was expecting. The government don't care about the human population,why on earth would they have sympathy for dwindling fish stocks. They probably view rivers with contempt,taking up valuable real estate building land on an already vastly overpopulated island. Perhaps it's their plan all along,get the three P's to decimate the natural waterways,then with all anglers on commercial 'managed' fisheries the sport as a whole will soon die.
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where's the evidence for the dwindling fish stocks? and anglers are voting with there own feet when it comes to fishing on commercials.
 
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