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Karen Twine research
- Thread starter Graham Elliott
- Start date
Ian Hugo Arnott
Senior Member
Yes Crooky I did read it and have saved the thesis.
As to the other nonsense, totally irrelevant to any fishing site and rather tedious in any event.
Regards,
Hugo
Paul Dowgill
Senior Member
Has she published any findings as yet?
Lee Fletcher
Senior Member
Interesting.
Dear All,
Karen's PhD thesis whilst interesting enough, is a cobbled together document based upon references previously written by a huge number of experts. I wish there was a "free" database when people like Karen could list these references in electronic form when publishing their thesis so we could all go and look at their findings in more detail.
There is actually a huge amount already written about barbel yet still very little is known about their movements. Also interesting is its becoming clear that a lot of barbel research is looking towards anglers to help with slotting in certain parts of the jigsaw? I happen to be one of those who have believed for years that anglers "could" play a major role in this.
Page 14 is interesting in that Karen talks about barbel moving location in the winter. I have been saying this for years about Trent barbel which confirms angler observance could play a vital part in learning more about the species? A major difference between Ouse barbel and Trent fish is that the males in the Trent often don't move at all in the winter. Partly because of location in many cases and partly due to availability of food but I have no doubt what so ever that the bigger females move.
Nice to see the BS in the list of acknowledgements.
Regards,
Lee.
Dear All,
Karen's PhD thesis whilst interesting enough, is a cobbled together document based upon references previously written by a huge number of experts. I wish there was a "free" database when people like Karen could list these references in electronic form when publishing their thesis so we could all go and look at their findings in more detail.
There is actually a huge amount already written about barbel yet still very little is known about their movements. Also interesting is its becoming clear that a lot of barbel research is looking towards anglers to help with slotting in certain parts of the jigsaw? I happen to be one of those who have believed for years that anglers "could" play a major role in this.
Page 14 is interesting in that Karen talks about barbel moving location in the winter. I have been saying this for years about Trent barbel which confirms angler observance could play a vital part in learning more about the species? A major difference between Ouse barbel and Trent fish is that the males in the Trent often don't move at all in the winter. Partly because of location in many cases and partly due to availability of food but I have no doubt what so ever that the bigger females move.
Nice to see the BS in the list of acknowledgements.
Regards,
Lee.
Martin Gregory
Senior Member
Cobbled together?
What exactly do you mean? Its a Thesis for a PhD so has to demonstrate that she has studied all available data and previous research, which appertains to her own area of research, hence ,the exhaustive references made throughout the body of the thesis.
I've not read the thesis in its entirety as I want to be able to give it my full attention, not just skim it. However, so far it reads very well and is also very informative.
What exactly do you mean? Its a Thesis for a PhD so has to demonstrate that she has studied all available data and previous research, which appertains to her own area of research, hence ,the exhaustive references made throughout the body of the thesis.
I've not read the thesis in its entirety as I want to be able to give it my full attention, not just skim it. However, so far it reads very well and is also very informative.
Lee Fletcher
Senior Member
I've read it all. Its a collection of expert opinions put together by Karen for her thesis. Cobbled together? Unfortunate descriptive so I withdraw that.
Its not War and Peace. Its a thesis and part of her journey towards obtaining her degree for becoming a Doctor of Philosophy. Can't see Alan Henshaw clearing his desk just yet.
Regards,
Lee.
Its not War and Peace. Its a thesis and part of her journey towards obtaining her degree for becoming a Doctor of Philosophy. Can't see Alan Henshaw clearing his desk just yet.
Regards,
Lee.
Joe Winstanley
Senior Member & Supporter
"It's not War and Peace"
I hadn't realised that Leo Tolstoy was an acknowledged expert on barbel behaviour...
I hadn't realised that Leo Tolstoy was an acknowledged expert on barbel behaviour...
Paul Dowgill
Senior Member
As Martin notes, and i did above, there is a structure to a PH.D that basically requires a chapter on a literature review - it is present in all theses, i recall the huge amount of reading i did for mine many moons ago - so there is a lot of reference to prior work. Most of this thesis is actually first hand measurement and recording hence all the graphs/ charts etc - you will not find these anywhere else.
The moot question for me is does it tell us anything new - this is up for debate, it certainly does for this section of the Ouse, but the general points i made above and others such as the veracity of restocking are the aspects we need to be discussing and need further research.
The moot question for me is does it tell us anything new - this is up for debate, it certainly does for this section of the Ouse, but the general points i made above and others such as the veracity of restocking are the aspects we need to be discussing and need further research.
Lee Fletcher
Senior Member
Hi Paul,
Of course re-stocking is not the long term answer for a lot of rivers and Karen mutes that in her thesis, as do a great many other experts. I have always maintained that the river environment is one of our national treasures. It is also one of the most fragile as very few wild environments can be destroyed in minutes as is the case with stretches of rivers.
But apart from incidences of severe chemical pollution which can only take seconds to enter any river system, its the long term effects of other pollutants which directly affect fish stocks and fish recruitment. Add to these the threats coming from clear imbalance's in predator numbers and the effects of agricultural practices together with habitat destruction, its clear to see that re stocking only remains a short term answer to a much larger problem.
The river Trent has gone from strength to strength in the last three decades. The river runs cleaner now than it ever has since the days of the industrial revolution. Roach and dace populations have exploded in the last ten years amid an environment of gin clear water. Odd then that this revival flies in the face of the trent being renowned for roach fishing when it used to run brown with filthy polluted water!!?? It can also be argued that the Trent is the finest barbel fishing river in the country today. Populations of huge carp to 50lbs plus, mammoth shoals of bream to well over ten pounds, huge chub, pike, zander, catfish to over 20lbs (illegally introduced admittedly) trout, encouraging eel numbers in places and the ever increasing emergence of salmon runs now being made up the river. The Trent used to be a major salmon river when 10,000 plus fish runs were common and those days are returning fast. Did you know the largest recorded salmon caught from the Trent was a fish of 46lb!
Interestingly, the location of the major spawning sites for dace along the Trent still remains a mystery, even to the lads at Calverton Fish Farm apparently.
The Upper Great Ouse is undoubtedly in decline compared to what it once was and this is not just reflected by a handful of locations that once contained huge barbel. And whilst research into declining rivers is important, we should also use examples like the river Trent as a standard to what "can" be achieved once the balance is right.
We have now got otters established and these populations will undoubtedly spread to colonise other ares and tributaries. We have arguably had the largest populations of cormorants of any inland river in the UK for generations. We now have a rapidly expanding population of zander spreading like wild fire along the middle river and beyond. Yet still the river goes from strength to strength with increasing numbers of fish which continue to support increasing predator numbers. As a fishery is still remains virtually untapped with massive swaths of banks completely deserted where once one would find it almost impossible to get a pitch at weekends due to the matches being fished.
They say fish thrive on neglect and in angling terms there is probably a ring of truth in that.
Regards,
Lee.
Of course re-stocking is not the long term answer for a lot of rivers and Karen mutes that in her thesis, as do a great many other experts. I have always maintained that the river environment is one of our national treasures. It is also one of the most fragile as very few wild environments can be destroyed in minutes as is the case with stretches of rivers.
But apart from incidences of severe chemical pollution which can only take seconds to enter any river system, its the long term effects of other pollutants which directly affect fish stocks and fish recruitment. Add to these the threats coming from clear imbalance's in predator numbers and the effects of agricultural practices together with habitat destruction, its clear to see that re stocking only remains a short term answer to a much larger problem.
The river Trent has gone from strength to strength in the last three decades. The river runs cleaner now than it ever has since the days of the industrial revolution. Roach and dace populations have exploded in the last ten years amid an environment of gin clear water. Odd then that this revival flies in the face of the trent being renowned for roach fishing when it used to run brown with filthy polluted water!!?? It can also be argued that the Trent is the finest barbel fishing river in the country today. Populations of huge carp to 50lbs plus, mammoth shoals of bream to well over ten pounds, huge chub, pike, zander, catfish to over 20lbs (illegally introduced admittedly) trout, encouraging eel numbers in places and the ever increasing emergence of salmon runs now being made up the river. The Trent used to be a major salmon river when 10,000 plus fish runs were common and those days are returning fast. Did you know the largest recorded salmon caught from the Trent was a fish of 46lb!
Interestingly, the location of the major spawning sites for dace along the Trent still remains a mystery, even to the lads at Calverton Fish Farm apparently.
The Upper Great Ouse is undoubtedly in decline compared to what it once was and this is not just reflected by a handful of locations that once contained huge barbel. And whilst research into declining rivers is important, we should also use examples like the river Trent as a standard to what "can" be achieved once the balance is right.
We have now got otters established and these populations will undoubtedly spread to colonise other ares and tributaries. We have arguably had the largest populations of cormorants of any inland river in the UK for generations. We now have a rapidly expanding population of zander spreading like wild fire along the middle river and beyond. Yet still the river goes from strength to strength with increasing numbers of fish which continue to support increasing predator numbers. As a fishery is still remains virtually untapped with massive swaths of banks completely deserted where once one would find it almost impossible to get a pitch at weekends due to the matches being fished.
They say fish thrive on neglect and in angling terms there is probably a ring of truth in that.
Regards,
Lee.
Paul Dowgill
Senior Member
I might have to move - the rivers i fish middle Thames and its tributaries could not be described in this way - there are some good fish but thriving, i don't think so, although the EA barbel figures for 2009 are very interesting, albeit 4 years ago.
Alex Gowney
Senior Member & Supporter
A very interesting read irrespective of what data Karen used from other authors. In fact she was more comparing these findings with previous ones rather actually using them. It was obviously a pretty thorough study and threw up some interesting findings. Disappointing that the largest fish had to go missing though...
Of no surprise was the conclusion that signals are the prime culprits in poor recruitment studies. Despite what some people say regular trapping seems the only way to exert even a modicum of control over the damned things.
Of no surprise was the conclusion that signals are the prime culprits in poor recruitment studies. Despite what some people say regular trapping seems the only way to exert even a modicum of control over the damned things.
Haydn Clarke
Senior Member & Supporter
Excuse the seven year bump on an old thread....
But having re-read through this old thread I was intrigued by Ash’s reference to another piece of research being carried out. I’m sure some or even most of you may have already seen this elsewhere but I thought I’d share the link here for anyone who may not have read it.
I’ve yet to read it myself - I do find these things a bit dry - but I shall endeavour to try and have read through it at some point. The constant cross referencing to previous research papers and dates mean I’ll probably fold after just a couple of pages buy hey-ho.
Terry Simner
Senior Member & Supporter
"Dry" and "Referencing" is the 'nature of the beast' I'm afraid... you won't get your dissertation/thesis passed your academic supervisor if it's full of laughs, and basically a "Well I think...."
Ray Thorpe
Senior Member
And Away
Haydn Clarke
Senior Member & Supporter
"Dry" and "Referencing" is the 'nature of the beast' I'm afraid... you won't get your dissertation/thesis passed your academic supervisor if it's full of laughs, and basically a "Well I think...."
Well, there was silly old me thinking a phd thesis would be a bundle of fun and joy
to read. Oh, how dim I must be. Thankfully, you’re on hand to put me straight, eh.
John Newman
Senior Member
This caught my eye and I scrolled down to the comment where it showed a link to the uploaded document. On clicking the link I immediately noticed the publication date of 2013! Seven years down the line the situation on the Gt Ouse has, I believe, (I don't fish there) changed vastly so I fail to see the relevance of this in the final month of 2020. I read this at the time of publication and still have a copy on one of my devices.
Some new research is required but the question is who will fund it?
Some new research is required but the question is who will fund it?
Haydn Clarke
Senior Member & Supporter
I fail to see the relevance of your post when the link I’ve put up is to a research paper submitted in November 2019, Unless I’m mistaken (which is very much possible).
Anyhow, I just thought it may be of interest to some who may have posted on this old thread and may have not seen this later paper.
She carried out a survey a few years back on my neck of the Ouse, trying to find what was going on with the depletion of the barbel stocks.
Graham Elliott
Senior Member & Supporter
There have been a few.
One study looked at the benefits of gravel cleaning of spawning grounds. I can't remember if on the Lea or Ouse.
Not many it seems. Only beneficial for a year at most.
One study looked at the benefits of gravel cleaning of spawning grounds. I can't remember if on the Lea or Ouse.
Not many it seems. Only beneficial for a year at most.