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In reality can Barbel really know the difference ?

J

Joe Fletcher

No Longer a Member
My question is ? When a Barbel is swimming around and looking for some thing to eat ?
Can it tell the difference between some thing that may me good for them ? Or will it just eat it any way if it feels safe to do so ?
Is the HNV theory nonsence ?
 
I take protein because I know it's good for me..does a barbel?

Given the choice between say fish & chips & a high protein meal most people would go for the former, I maybe wrong. I know a lot of lads who get a fried spam sandwich :eek: is a barbel more educated? Probably ;)
 
Thats the billion dollar question isn't it ? another way to look at it is will a Barbel having eaten something palatable that is of a high food value eat more and eventually start seeking it out ? my opinion, and it is my opinion is yes it will, will they also continue to take other foods ? yes, of course they will, will they over a period start to favour the better foodstuff ? well they would be fairly inefficient creatures if they didn't, surely ? Nutritional recognition and innate behaviour, you either believe in it or you don't, i do, particularly the latter.
 
It's all nonsense I'm afraid.
No fish has the ability to deduce such things!
 
I have seen too many good results to condemn HNV theory as nonsense, across most species it seems to have its rewards. As with most things, it needs thinking about, those that use it as a method and score highly seem to do a bit more than buy the latest wonder-bait off the shelf.
 
Oh well that's the question answered.

Next!

The Oracle has spoken.

Nobody has the answer really, despite all what science or scientists have discovered. Fish I think are like people, we all have our different tastes. I mean I like cauliflower and I like cheese, but i don't like cauliflower cheese!
 
Fish need to survive like any other living organism. Depending on the availability of food, fish like any other organism eats whatever it can to live. It's a bit like a starving person eating their own poo, we know it's not great but needs must.

So if a fish has a load of boilies in front of it then it eats them because it's easy. If food is scarce then they might eat something not so palatable if that's all there is.
 
I must say I think it's snake oil, ask any dinner lady what kids prefer & it's junk food..So some are trying to say a barbel is more food savvy than a young child or most adults for that matter..
Probably the best barbel/fish bait ever is maggots are they HNV..
 
Good post Simon,
There has always been a school of thought that a good quality frozen bait outlives a shelf life for instance,because a barbel recognises the value of the former.

We seem to have a few threads going at present that are really discussing the same subject and will always turn up contradictions .
I guess my most successful bait for barbel over the years has been casters which have a relatively low HNV content, but some guys who catch far more big barbel than I could ever dream of swear by a good quality boilie.
It certainly is a conundrum that bait making companies have taken advantage of for decades, but has an indisputable credible foundation in the likes of Fred W's and a few other pioneers who dared to question the dietary preferences of coarse fish.
 
Simon Lush said:
So Julian, why is it fish on some stretches become so besotted with trout pellets ? They are a pretty high food value.
Click to expand...

They may be high food value, but any edible bait dumped into a stretch en-masse will be taken! Do they know its good for them apparently? no, its just there and easily available, wild creatures are opportunists, free food ,easily found, they ain,t going to pass it up!
peter
 
Steve Holt said:
I must say I think it's snake oil, ask any dinner lady what kids prefer & it's junk food..So some are trying to say a barbel is more food savvy than a young child or most adults for that matter..
Probably the best barbel/fish bait ever is maggots are they HNV..
Click to expand...

Maggots are a fairly decent foodstuff for barbel i would imagine seeing as a large part of their natural diet is insect larvae ! High Nutritional value is not the same as Very high protien, one is better balanced than the other, ooh i'm getting out of my depth now ! :)
 
The answer to this question as far as HNV fans go is obviously yes. They argue that if a fish couldn't tell what was good for it, then it would take the easy route and eat whatever was most easily available...and would soon die from inadequate nutrition. Can't really argue against that.

All animals (including us) do many things instinctively. It's not a measure of intelligence, it's pure unthinking instinct, they are not consciously aware of why they do it, only that they must. Herbivores roaming on the African or American grasslands are one prime example of this. They ALL periodically go in search of a salt lick. They don't do that because their local shop has run out of their favourite salt and vinegar crisps...they do it instinctively because nature has built the desire to do that into the autopilot part of their brain, simply because their natural diet is short of that vital mineral.

There are a million and one similar examples of this sort of thing which all point to one thing. All critters (including fish) have built in instincts that drive them to eat what is good for them for the majority of the time. You can con them into eating something that gives out false food signals (as in attractor type boilies)...but they WILL learn in time to avoid these and go for those with genuine quality food content. You can also feed them into going for items that have half decent food values, but an incorrect balance, so are not brilliant for their health (hence obesity perhaps?). However, ultimately, they MUST eat what their body requires...or else they will die.

Eating the correct food does NOT suggest that fish are more intelligent than us, as some will sarcastically infer. It merely means that they have subconscious instincts that drive them to eat enough of what they require to survive...and further, to prosper. Natural selection will ensure that those with the strongest, the best developed natural survival instincts will come out on top...even though they have no idea of why the hell they are doing what they do :D

Cheers, Dave.
 
Simon Lush said:
So Julian, why is it fish on some stretches become so besotted with trout pellets ? They are a pretty high food value.[/

Simon, a barbel does not eat trout pellets because they consider them 'pretty high food value'. Trout pellets are very attractive to most of our coarse fish and have been developed by scientists within aquaculture which I am sure the massive majority are aware of. It is a huge misconception and legacy from the 70's that fish can 'recognise' a food that has a 'higher nutritional value'. HNV also seems to be another way of saying high protein levels within a man made bait. It is readily proven that a coarse fish needs a certain level of protein and lots and lots of exhaustive literature is available on the nutritional requirements of coarse fish. Trout pellets for example exceed these requirements in levels of protein and could possibly be dangerous in the long term; who knows barbel in these stretches may start growing extra fins!:) as in extra barbules on the Avon a few years back.
I'm not saying here that HNV baits are not better than say a semolina and soya combo because in my experience they clearly are better; they inherently contain more attractive ingredients, not because they are higher in protein. Conversely, for every trout pellet junkie someone knows of a sweetcorn sucker.
Fred Wilton got the bait right but the theory wrong in my opinion.:eek:
Click to expand...
 
Simon Lush said:
Maggots are a fairly decent foodstuff for barbel i would imagine seeing as a large part of their natural diet is insect larvae ! High Nutritional value is not the same as Very high protien, one is better balanced than the other, ooh i'm getting out of my depth now ! :)
Click to expand...

Maggots are a great barbel bait but barbel do not put weight on from eating them.
 
Julian Peacock said:
Simon Lush said:
So Julian, why is it fish on some stretches become so besotted with trout pellets ? They are a pretty high food value.[/

Simon, a barbel does not eat trout pellets because they consider them 'pretty high food value'. Trout pellets are very attractive to most of our coarse fish and have been developed by scientists within aquaculture which I am sure the massive majority are aware of. It is a huge misconception and legacy from the 70's that fish can 'recognise' a food that has a 'higher nutritional value'. HNV also seems to be another way of saying high protein levels within a man made bait. It is readily proven that a coarse fish needs a certain level of protein and lots and lots of exhaustive literature is available on the nutritional requirements of coarse fish. Trout pellets for example exceed these requirements in levels of protein and could possibly be dangerous in the long term; who knows barbel in these stretches may start growing extra fins!:) as in extra barbules on the Avon a few years back.
I'm not saying here that HNV baits are not better than say a semolina and soya combo because in my experience they clearly are better; they inherently contain more attractive ingredients, not because they are higher in protein. Conversely, for every trout pellet junkie someone knows of a sweetcorn sucker.
Fred Wilton got the bait right but the theory wrong in my opinion.:eek:
Click to expand...

So, can you explain to me just why most of our coarse fish find Trout pellets attractive then ? If they don't recognise them as good nutrition ? As always, i'm asking questions here not stating opinions as i am as unsure of the definitive answers as most other people on here !
Click to expand...
 
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