Hooks

[Howard Cooke]

I am going to get in on this action too and place an order. Looks a great set up. Graham/John, do you chaps fish backleads generaly speaking (thinking of the Kennet/Loddon)? Graham, I remember you saying that with a PP hooklink you dont have a particularly long hook length. Also-just bought some spiderwire ultracast fluorobraid to have a play with. On the tin it says "the braid that sinks like a fluorcarbon". The 10lb version has a 0.20mm dia and feels OK. Dont know if anyone else has had a play with this. If it really does sink well it might be useful if one wanted a longer hook length. Equally-I could have just wasted £20.

 

[John Cook]

I fish a light backlead which consists of a rubber float stop with a tiny amount of heavy metal moulded around...Mostly a shortish hooklink 12 to 15 inches...at the moment its gardner trickster braid, i would be keen to know how you get on with that spiderwire mainline braid, would like to know how good it sinks?

 

[Graham Elliott]

Howard. No I never fish backleads unless a weed free clear water. Then I don't bother to be honest. Usually about 12" hooklink or reduced on heavy flow to 6-9".

John. Happy to fish a 2oz filled feeder (5oz?) with the smaller ones for a lob out.

They are based on bs strain for a breakaway. 4lb pull for smaller and 8lb for larger.

Larger ones for a bigger river for a longer lob out! (99 percent underarm casting)

Graham

 

[John Cook]

Thank you Graham..Just done my order i got the standard ones and some of the gardner tulip beads...Will let you know what i think about the set up.

John

 

[Howard Cooke]

Thanks again Graham. I find it fascinating that there can be so much empahsis on long hook lengths, backleads, getting everything generally nailed to the riverbed and yet you catch stunning fish-and regularly-with a far more straightforward rig. I know this sort of debate comes up often and it can be difficult and dangerous to try and generalise too much, but I have certainly taken on board adivce around keeping things simple. Cheers.

 

[John Cook]

Howard Howard Pleeeeeeeeeze!!!! He wont be able to get his head through the door Nothing wrong with keeping it simple i think that we often over complicate things for ourselves, get a little blinkered.

 

[Howard Cooke]

OK John, just for the purposes of balance-how ugly and fat was that carp Graham caught from the Kennet this week? Rubbish angling.

 

[John Cook]

Thats it Howard Pure luck Matey No old Foxy is a good lad!

 

[Adrian Williams]

There is an acronym K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Stupid (I prefer to say Sweetheart), its as true in fishing as any other walk of life.
I use virtually the same rig today feeder fishing on big rivers that I developed twenty odd years ago. It consists of a link swivel up the line to carry a feeder, followed by three inches of hard silicone tube (a long tail rubber thing these days) then another swivel to attach a hooklength to (a quick clip swivel these days). I'm not claiming to have invented this rig, it simply evolved from a similar one involving a John Roberts feeder boom. I have seen it described as 'the only barbel rig you ever need', Google it, and the 'Jan Porter' rig.

All my small river fishing uses the rig Graham has described or I sometimes fish straight through with a swan shot link ledger held in place with a drennan feeder stop or a small split shot.

 

[Howard Cooke]

Indeed Adrian. I remember a turning point in my fishing last season after staring in my very own blankety blank show for weeks. It was one of those nightmare sessions where most of my time was spent having words with rig stealing trees. Having nothing but line hanging from my rod tip I attached a size 8 hook, buried it in a lump of smelly meat, and chucked it in the river. 5 minutes later I was kissing a near double. Another followed shortly after. But if you can't agonise and lose sleep over rig bits and more besides then it's not really fishing is it.

 

[David Gauntlett]

All my small river fishing uses the rig Graham has described or I sometimes fish straight through with a swan shot link ledger held in place with a drennan feeder stop or a small split shot.

Adrian, the straight through rig with the Drennan ledger stop was the way I used to to fish for all my lead work many years back, because I wanted the strength of a set up without knots....and there weren't so many options available at that time Is that what you are referring to when you say "feeder stop"?

I only ask because I eventually started to worry about the flats that the line was sustaining when the peg tightened up on it in the tube section. When I tested the area to see if it was of any real consequence, I found that it often had weakened the line considerably. Obviously, this occurred more noticeably if your link/lead ever got snagged, even just gently in weed....but once I started checking, I could see it was there even without that after a few hours fishing.

Just a thought fella.

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Adrian Williams]

Yep, the 'ledger' stops did have a problem with nipping the line if you squeezed them down too hard but the new ones are more user friendly and if you make your own with a cocktail stick and a bit of silicon tube they cause no damage at all. The trick with a link ledger is not to squeeze the shots on to the loop of line too tight so they are sacrificial in the event of a snag situation.
Tbh I could probably get away with a float stop these days, I'll give it a go next time I'm on the Dove.

 

[Jon Whelan]

Interesting thread this.

Just regarding the combi rig. For me the main feature of the true combi rig is to use 3 different lines; monofilament for the boom (leader) section, very soft braid to the hook and an even finer braid for the hair. Two can suffice.

This is primarily a bottom lip hooking rig, which when a hook bait is drawn into the mouth it tumbles/turns upon ejection. The tumbling/turning effect is magnified by utilising the different lines, especially the short braid gap between the combi knot to the eye of the hook.

I prefer to keep this gap to about an inch as the (relatively heavier) proximate monofilament (stiffer boom section) helps turn the hook as well as the tumbling effect, helped by differing (material) lines, consequently making this an effective anti eject rig. For me this is the principle that the combi rig was/is so effective.

Not saying the following is incorrect, but I seen the gap between the combi knot & top of the hook much greater than an inch; for me, such a length does not turn the hook so quickly and will be easier to eject for those cagier fish. Lengthening this section will not make any difference to whether a fish will detect this rig or not. If they did I feel that this would be due to other watercraft issues/factors. If this were to be longer then this could amplify the risk of snap offs due to snags, etc. Also, if this variation was better then I am sure other specimen anglers would advocate this.

On occasions, to turn the hook even quicker I use rig tube to create the line aligner.

In consequence to the rig materials used other qualities are ticked. Namely, the use of a monofilament boom section that can be used from 3 inch to 6+ foot. What line one uses for the boom section is ones choice - I use both fluorocarbon or monofilament dependent on the circumstances but again, a true stiff boom to create both the mass & stiffness requires a higher diameter line. That was why bristle filament was & still is so popular for shorter combi's. Good stiffness can be obtained by using 0.35mm+ diameter lines. Even so, discerning material choice can give one a very versatile rig.

The stiff booms yields good anti tangle qualities especially for shorter rigs as well as 'kicking' the hook bait away from the lead. Additionally the combi sits flat on more firm, relatively even lake/river beds. To help pin down longer rigs, I occasionally use very small strips of lead wire from leadcore which is carefully (tightly) twisted around (parts of) the boom. Also, the use of monofilament will give abrasion resistance to snags, etc.

Especially when longer combi's are used, these are very cheap to make & even more so when coupled to the aforementioned rapier hooks. Very quick to tie with a loop knot clipping to the mainline. Job done.

Dave G was spot on in his comment "I have never thought that any of the much vaunted coated braids come close to what you can achieve with a true combi. In general, the coated part is not stiff enough, whereas the braid tends to be not supple enough...there is just not enough contrast between the two elements to make them work as they should".

I know that many on here do not need much expansion on this but for those who are considering the combi's use or its principles I thought I'd expand some of its qualities from my point of view. Confidence through any rigs used is based on ones experience of it. How and when it is used is a personal thing.

Cheers, Jon

 

[Richard Parsons]

Thanks for that, Jon. I've never considered using a combi rig, so have remained ignorant of its make-up, and the reasons for its use. I currently use a very simple rig; mono mainline with a hooklink attached to it using a swivel. The weight's attached to a lead clip with a bead between the clip and the swivel. I guess I catch my fair share of fish and, so I thought, location and river/weather conditions usually dictate the blanks. Could it be the rig as well?

It's a good thread, chaps, and apologies for the digression from 'hooks'.

 

[David Gauntlett]

Hi Jon,

I love a good rabbit about rigs and stuff, great to hear other anglers views and the logic behind their methods. Mind you, as Richard said, apologies must go to the OP for our digressing somewhat .

I always see rigs as a bit of a compromise, usually having to weigh up the advantages/disadvantages of each element, and make a choice. I agree that a short braid section on a combi is better from a turning viewpoint, but am bothered that possibly it then sacrifices the other great advantage of braid, i.e, it's soft, supple nature, which I assume is less disturbing to a fish when it drapes across it's lips when it picks up the bait. As a result, I usually opt for a somewhat longer braid section, coupled with the shrink tube aligner you mention to enhance the turning properties of the rig.

Having said that, with barbel fishing I frequently use a fluoro hook length, so my logic is a little muddied when fishing rivers As it happens, I have recently decided to try more subtle presentations for barbel, in the hope of improving my returns. So far, laziness has led me along the "If their 'avin it, they will 'ave it whatever" path...but of late, I have decided it would be quite nice to catch them when they are being a bit finicky as well

Experimenting keeps the interest going if nothing else

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Howard Cooke]

Dave-I think this is spot on. I have too easily lapsed into a mentality where I basically just think I need to sit it out until dusk/darkness and then the bites will come (which they often do and often from ones favourite swim-which reminds me, I must also break free of SSS, or Same Swim Syndrome. Would be nice to show a bit of courage, risk some blanks and explore other swims/stretches...if only I had more time...). I struggle to catch during the daylight and think, like you, I need to sharpen up the rigs a bit (together with improved location/watercraft) and for me, this means more delicacy. What fun.

 

[David Gauntlett]

Dave-I think this is spot on. I have too easily lapsed into a mentality where I basically just think I need to sit it out until dusk/darkness and then the bites will come (which they often do and often from ones favourite swim-which reminds me, I must also break free of SSS, or Same Swim Syndrome. Would be nice to show a bit of courage, risk some blanks and explore other swims/stretches...if only I had more time...). I struggle to catch during the daylight and think, like you, I need to sharpen up the rigs a bit (together with improved location/watercraft) and for me, this means more delicacy. What fun.

Hi Howard,

Sounds like we have exactly the same mind set (or lazy habits, to be brutally honest ) The thing is, in any discussion on bait/rigs/tackle between barbel anglers, you will ALWAYS here the same platitudes " if they wan't it, they'll have it", "If they are feeding, the bait doesn't matter a toss" Etc, etc....and it IS easy to fall into that way of thinking. Sadly, although those thoughts do have an element of truth to them, they really only apply to the more prolific, high stock level rivers...that and the odd, rare, inexplicable periods when fish everywhere loose their marbles for some reason

Be interesting to compare results after our experiments...in the immortal words of all children, no matter what age...you show me yours, and I'll show you mine

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Jon Whelan]

Apologies for the digression from the hooks thread, though hook choice has to made in context to the material & means that it's connected to the mainline to get the most from it..!

Rigs, it's a confidence thing. There is no need to change them unless one believes there are issues, other than watercraft, that is resulting in hook bait pick ups not being converted into takes/runs.

I have been fishing for over 30 years, carp fishing for 20 of those years & only 7 years for barbel on bigger rivers. I am a firm believer in what Adrian advocates and that is to keep things as simple as possible. To some, what I have written is probably a bit removed from simple, but to tie that rig is simple & can be accomplished in less than 5 minutes. The combi rig is simple, the mechanics of it are common & fundamental to many modern anti eject rigs.

From my point of view, a bait that has been picked up by a fish should result in a run. In reality this is not always the case. To prevent this we try to ensure the bait is first taken into the mouth and to maximise this opportunity by converting this into a hook up.

Regarding the combi and the length of braid tail we use. Firstly, like most stiff natured rigs, good presentation relies on that it is used on a relatively firm, flat bottom clear of debris. If this is not the case then this rig will not lie so flat and will have the tendency, at least in part, protrude from the bed. For me, possibly the only advantage of having an extended braid tail would be to slightly negate the potential for this protrusion.

Regarding the use of braid to confer a softness that a fish cannot feel when the hook bait is taken. This was in part the original school of thought in the 1980s for the use of dacron. For me though, for a fish to have ('not') felt this softness, the fish has had to have come into contact with the braid - has it bumped into a part of it or has the fish actually taken the bait? Given the latter (and that the rig is mostly flush with the bottom) the bait is in the mouth then its a matter of turning that hook before the fish has the time to completely eject the rig.

By lengthening the braid this, for me, makes it easier to eject the hook bait. There is greater clearance between the hook and the monofilament. Whereas with a length of an inch there is enough movement for the free passage into the mouth yet on ejection of the bait the stiffness of the monofilament keeps the tail end more within the mouth for slightly longer so allowing the differing stiffness's of materials used to help the bait topple/tumble within so increasing the chance for both the hook to turn and so giving better hooking potential.

When fishing over a bed of particles I feel that fish have their heads pinned down closer to the bed not having to move as far for the next bait and again this shorter length helps turn the hook quicker in these instances.

I completely agree on keeping things as simple as possible. Whilst reading books from more accomplished anglers than many of us, there is comparatively little emphasis on rigs compared to the rest of what they are trying to portray.

For my barbelling, I have 4 standard rigs with some slight variation dependent as to what baits I want to use. One of my most successful rigs I have ever used is just a size 6 super specialist attached to an eight inch 8-12lb monofilament, the hook being wrapped in a very soft water based fish meal paste.

As for changing ones presentation, the ability to see the fish react with our hookbaits baits is the best privilege we be afforded. For me that is not the case. If I knew there were feeding fish in my swim yet I was not getting the amount of takes that I would expect, negating all other considerations, I might tweak a rig. Normally I'd change either the size/type of bait (with this sometimes change to a suited rig) and/or length of rig. If this carried on being the case then deep surgery with a bit of experimentation might ensue, which even if this does not result in more fish makes sure that I am optimising most aspects and trying to think a little more out of my normal box which can only be a good thing.

Its the obvious proviso, get the location & approach mostly right then hooking the fish is the simplest part of the whole.

Cheers, Jon

 

[Jon Whelan]

Regarding the use of fluoro vs mono for combi's. Never had an issue with fluoro being brittle with the brands I use. In clear waters with brighter weather I choose fluoro. For coloured waters or dusk/night fishing I use monofilament - main reason for me is that a bulk spool of monofilament is cheaper.

 

[Richard Parsons]

Howard - I would think SSS (as you describe it) is going to have more of an impact on your success than the use of a combi hooklink. After all, if the fish aren't there, it really doesn't matter how long one sits in the swim.

David - my local river doesn't have a large head of fish, but they can be caught on fairly simple rigs. If I'm not catching, it's (as mentioned above) usually because there are no fish about, or feeding conditions are just not right. My rig's the least of my worries.

It's a funny game, this barbel angling; we're all after the same thing but in so many different ways.