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Hooks again.

Let’s be honest though on the other side of the coin barbed hooks have come on leaps and bounds in recent times to the point that the barb is much easier to remove than it used to be...... but the fact remains that barb however small it is, it has a job to do and that job is to latch on to the inside of the lip and prevent a hook from coming out the same way it went in. You cannot remove a barbed hook without causing some degree of tearing unless it’s either gone right through and you get the chance to cut it off. Or you expand the hole big enough to get it to clear without making contact. (Not advised btw) It’s impossible... you have to do some degree of tearing in most cases and I’m just not that comfortable with the idea.
How does a fish remove a barbed hook? Sometimes they can but it’s not much fun for them. Usually it be in the case of a tethered fish where it might have enough energy or strength to physically rip it out. Or wait around for months for it to completely rust away. It will shift a barbless though with a few shakes of its head and be feeding the next day. Going back to commercial carp fisheries (it’s not my area of expertise) I only ever fish them with the kids but I cannot deny I’ve seen lots of mouth damage to those poor carp but none of which I can honestly say I put down to the use of barbless hooks. The biggest fish in our lake I could comfortably land on an Avon rod with 8-10lb mono, yet the trend down there seems to be 3 hefty carp rods set on bite alarms spooled up with kite string. Unless they know something I don’t??? They are landing 7 and 8lb fish on this gear literally winding them in. What happened to a little waggler Set up in the margins on a good fun rod.
 
Richard Isaacs said:
They are landing 7 and 8lb fish on this gear literally winding them in.
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That's when carp under 10lbs become "skimmers":eek:
I stopped using barbed hooks for barbel in ~2004 when I deep hooked a barbel whilst 'up-streaming' on the Teme. I messed about trying to get the hook out of its throat for ~15mins, having to return the fish to the landing net several times to recover. In the end I had to cut the line. Not good. Yes, deep hooking a barbel is a rare occurrence, but it sickened me. Previously I'd struggled getting barbed hooks which were rooted deep in the 'scissors' of the barbel mouth. What with the Teme being full of snags I though enough is enough...I ain't leaving any tethered fish. So from then on I went totally barbless for barbel, and it made zero difference to hook/land ratio (it was high before, and stayed just as high). Two bonuses were : many barbel unhooked themselves whilst resting in the landing net, and a mega bonus was .... unhooking eels It's SO much easier than with barbed hooks.
To me I believe it's a confidence thing - you need to prove to yourself that going barbless won't lose you barbel. I now know it doesn't.
 
They are followers of fashion Richard. They have watched folk like Danny Fairbrass on video and cannot see how you could possibly land an 8lb carp without a 3.75 Infinity, 20 braid and 4oz lead.
 
Terry Simner said:
How? The barb only restricts movement in the 'in-out' plane, not in the potential sideways movement plane. Why would a hook move sideways anyway ... and if it did, how would the relatively very small surface area provided by the barb reduce this?
N.b... "cheese cutting" is an expression that brings braid and fine-wire hooks to my mind.
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Hi Terry,
I appreciate 'cheese cutting' was not the right term. But the thinking that has been expressed for some time now that a barb even a micro barb gives a firmer hold in the mouth and is less inclined to move. I chose Pallatrax Gripz a couple of seasons ago and found the hook hold good and the hook easy to remove. Of course this is a unique pattern, neither Barbed or Barbless.
It would seem Carp and other species suffer more than Barbel as far as mouth damage, and Roach are often the victims. Of course the correct use of a disgorger is paramount no matter what hook is used.
 
Terry Simner said:
That's when carp under 10lbs become "skimmers":eek:
I stopped using barbed hooks for barbel in ~2004 when I deep hooked a barbel whilst 'up-streaming' on the Teme. I messed about trying to get the hook out of its throat for ~15mins, having to return the fish to the landing net several times to recover. In the end I had to cut the line. Not good. Yes, deep hooking a barbel is a rare occurrence, but it sickened me. Previously I'd struggled getting barbed hooks which were rooted deep in the 'scissors' of the barbel mouth. What with the Teme being full of snags I though enough is enough...I ain't leaving any tethered fish. So from then on I went totally barbless for barbel, and it made zero difference to hook/land ratio (it was high before, and stayed just as high). Two bonuses were : many barbel unhooked themselves whilst resting in the landing net, and a mega bonus was .... unhooking eels It's SO much easier than with barbed hooks.
To me I believe it's a confidence thing - you need to prove to yourself that going barbless won't lose you barbel. I now know it doesn't.
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I think a lot people worry far too much about losing fish and lack confidence to actually try them. The barbless hook not being safe theory just fuels this and offers what’s believed to be credible reason to avoid them. I bump off the odd one in a season which simply reminds me that this is a game and today the fish won. Fair play to her and there is always next time. I gave up barbs in 2009 and I’m certainly not loosing any more fish.
I’m certainly blanking more often but that’s an entirely different topic 😂
 
Funny how some folk form an idea in their nut that people who are against barbless hooks do so because of losing fish ???

well certainly not in my case !!!
I used barbless hooks for a number of years using different makes and patterns the Gamakatsu G -Hard hook was the best by far no longer in production they worked out £1 per hook ten in a packet £10 a pop when I heard they were going to stop making them I bought ten packets and they were an amazing pattern and fish never came off ? when I saw the light so to speak I swore I would never ever use a barbless hook again only micro barbed or crushed barbs
and I have lost count of the times using a micro barbed hook a fish has taken me into a snag and I have gone out in a boat only to find one of its mates obviously had a pair of forceps and removed the hook and hooked it into a branch 🤔 🥴😂😂😂
 
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Gerry Giles said:
I have lost count of the times using a micro barbed hook a fish has taken me into a snag and I have gone out in a boat only to find one of its mates obviously had a pair of forceps and removed the hook and hooked it into a branch 🤔 🥴😂😂😂
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You’ll have to educate those fish about disgorgers mate. 😂

Seriously though it’s great that you get a hook back and the fish has swam free but doesn’t it make you ask the question how that hook has been removed and ended up in the branch? Last time I checked fish were lacking in the opposable thumb department so they haven’t the skill to remove it quite so delicately as you or I could remove it. It’s been ripped out!! That’s the bottom line. Barbs don’t fall out that defeats the entire purpose of them. So please tell me in this case which hook type is going to realistically cause the damage? A barb that’s been ripped out and left in a branch or a barbless that falls out and gets left in a branch.
 
I'm in the barbless camp for barbel and another vote for the Gardner Target Specimen hooks. I don't fish for carp so can't comment other than it seems to me the disfigured lips appear on carp in heavily stocked commercial waters where the frequency of being caught must be extremely high. Perhaps even daily on some waters that have matches running most days of the week.

As stated above a barbless hook often falls out in the net and very rarely do I have to use forceps to remove one. Losing the very occasional fish to a hooking coming free is a price I am prepared to pay. The mouth parts of barbel are very tough and I can remember in the past feeling the resistance of removing a barbed hook.

Again to repeat others experiences I have never had to remove someone else's barbless hook from a barbel I have caught whereas I have removed plenty of barbed ones along with hook lengths of various description.
 
Paul Richardson said:
I am currently in the micro-barbed camp but...I have to confess that some of the hooks I remove are more difficult than I would like and this is additional time on the bank for the fish that I don't like. I genuinely haven't used enough barbless to give a valid opinion and have good angler friends on both sides of the argument.
Due to new rules I used Pallatrax Gripz on the Wye earlier this season and they performed faultlessly. Yet back on the Swale i reverted, by type, to micto barbed.
Any views on the Gripz from longer term users? Are they a decent compromise for angler & fish?
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Paul - I've used Gripz a fair bit this season in sizes 8-12 & found them to be really good hooks all round, so much so that I often just leave my rods set up if I change venue from a 'no barbs' fishery to one without that restriction, & I have 100% faith in them.
Only one lost fish, & that was more due to me being a noddy & forgetting to disengage the baitrunner than the hook.
Pallatrax have a 'Black Friday' deal on at the moment on Gripz, I believe it's buy 5 packs get 5 free. (and no, I'm not sponsored by them!)
 
Ian Grant covered the issue with beaked barbless hooks and severe mouth damage on here about 6 years ago. His explanation made complete sense, using hands to explain how the damage occurs, maybe someone can find his original post. The main problem with barbless hooks is beaked barbless, the point, once penetrated, can cut through new areas during playing, no matter how soft the rod. Other barbless pattern hooks do not seem to cause the same issue. When commercial carp fisheries have mouth damaged fish its usually because the fish were stocked small, with soft mouths and come into contact with beaked barbless hooks during fast jerky fights.Their mouths can become so damaged they are ruined for life. Bigger older fish with steady fights and harder mouths are not so susceptible to mouth damage.
 
Mark Swaby said:
Ian Grant covered the issue with beaked barbless hooks and severe mouth damage on here about 6 years ago. His explanation made complete sense, using hands to explain how the damage occurs, maybe someone can find his original post?
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Well remembered Mark :)

The barbless hook thread I think you must be referring to is clickety-click here

BUT the actual descriptive explanation (with link in the above thread) was actually on the old iteration of BFW here

OR to save anyone looking, in case you aren't familiar navigating on the old iteration, I copy/pasted Ian's words from that old thread below (but I have to add that it might be worth reading the whole of that thread :) ) :


You can demonstrate yourself the effect by using your forefinger - or a real hook. ( pinched between your forefinger and thumb, not stuck in your flesh
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)


Hold your forefinger bolt upright and spin it back and forth , that represents the portion of a non beaked hook from point to bend, which largely is the
portion which enters the fishes lip. As you will see it spins on it's own axis, and in the case of a barbed hook will stay within the original entry hole,
not being able to withdraw.


Now take your forefinger, and bend it slightly, - though not truly representative of the beak on a hook it demonstrates the priciple well enough -


now spin your forefinger back and forth as you did before, the tip of your finger is no longer spinning on it's own axis but creating an arc, which is
exactly what a beaked hook will do inside the fishes lip, sliceing in a semi circular shape, creating i think probably even more damage than is possible with a
( straight point ) barbeles hook.


I think the best hooks are straight point, barbed hooks, and as strong as you can find.
 
The only argument I'd have with that is ...a barb acts in exactly the same way as a beak ... it too creates an 'arc' as the hook turns.
 
Terry, the barb actually stops the hook from rotating once its in,it stops that lateral movement,and because its down from the point its very unlikely to cause any sideways damage. Try using a hook and see, using your fingers,you can squeeze a barb really hard rotate the hook and get little damage,do not try the same squeezing a beaked point . If the barbless hook is not beaked then it rotates in the hole its created so tends to cause less damage.
 
Mark Swaby said:
Terry, the barb actually stops the hook from rotating once its in,it stops that lateral movement,and because its down from the point its very unlikely to cause any sideways damage. Try using a hook and see, using your fingers,you can squeeze a barb really hard rotate the hook and get little damage,do not try the same squeezing a beaked point . If the barbless hook is not beaked then it rotates in the hole its created so tends to cause less damage.
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mark I agree a barb makes rotating a hook a lot more difficult and a finger and thumb test will show this absolutely but put into fishing situations the theory doesn’t work the same way simply because the pressure applied to that hook is far greater than your twisting between a finger and thumb will ever be. I find It very hard to believe that any hook barbed, barbless, beak or straight will not twist in the soft mouth of a fish with the pressure achieved from the gear we use to catch them. If I was to grip that barbed hook between my fingers and pulled on it with a 2lb test 12foot rod I don’t think it’s gonna have a problem twisting. The barb is just go with it
 
Mark Swaby said:
Terry, the barb actually stops the hook from rotating once its in,it stops that lateral movement,and because its down from the point its very unlikely to cause any sideways damage. Try using a hook and see, using your fingers,you can squeeze a barb really hard rotate the hook and get little damage,do not try the same squeezing a beaked point . If the barbless hook is not beaked then it rotates in the hole its created so tends to cause less damage.
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I agree 'beak is bad' for 'hole/damage creation' ...but a barb is like a beak, albeit pointing in a different direction. It's still off from/proud of the rotational plane (i.e. the plane from hook point to start of bend)
 
Rod Foster said:
Paul - I've used Gripz a fair bit this season in sizes 8-12 & found them to be really good hooks all round, so much so that I often just leave my rods set up if I change venue from a 'no barbs' fishery to one without that restriction, & I have 100% faith in them.
Only one lost fish, & that was more due to me being a noddy & forgetting to disengage the baitrunner than the hook.
Pallatrax have a 'Black Friday' deal on at the moment on Gripz, I believe it's buy 5 packs get 5 free. (and no, I'm not sponsored by them!)
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Thanks Rod
Yes just ordered some and interested that they do smaller sizes too - worked out with carriage at less than £3 packet which I think is a good deal
 
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