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Great Ouse Barbel Study

Ahh well for every 'nay sayer' there is someone with a more positive spin I guess, but without any creditable evidence then we are all just speculating as to where the problem lies.
One thing for sure, you would be a fool if you put your shirt on just one reason.
 
Neil Smart said:
Ahh well for every 'nay sayer' there is someone with a more positive spin I guess, but without any creditable evidence then we are all just speculating as to where the problem lies.
One thing for sure, you would be a fool if you put your shirt on just one reason.
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Absolutely right Neil.

Cheers, Dave.
 
Whilst walking the dogs this morning I was pondering this issue, and thought that given the study regarding tagging, why can't we as anglers be permitted to tag.? Sure I appreciate the implications, but with the inevitable educational course and licensing of such an initiative to allow a few well placed anglers throughout the country, the feedback on catches would provide invaluable date as to movement, and numbers of Barbel.

Other than that it could be done unofficially, not with tagging but an I.D record of fish, such as black spot patterns, fins, etc that could be charted on a simple log, perhaps from a photograph?

As anglers I don't suppose we are the most organised bunch when it comes to such things, but tagging / chipping is fairly common, with larger fish, those that wished to partake could log such data with a area chappie or chapess and data published every year.

I need a lie down...:rolleyes:
 
Alex, it's the speed of the Ouse's decline that has amazed us. Over a period of 2/3 seasons, the fish taken have dramatically dropped.

Richard, many of us Ouse anglers have always moved with the times, lumps of spam went out yonks ago. (though it will still catch on a swollen river)
 
Neil, the tagging in the study required an incision in the flank of the fish and the insertion of an electronic device, under anaesthetic. This is not something your average angler is likely to be allowed to do. Photographing and sharing information about captures? Now I'm sure that's something everyone on the site would be queueing up to do.:eek:
 
Anthony Pearson said:
Neil, the tagging in the study required an incision in the flank of the fish and the insertion of an electronic device, under anaesthetic. This is not something your average angler is likely to be allowed to do. Photographing and sharing information about captures? Now I'm sure that's something everyone on the site would be queueing up to do.:eek:
Click to expand...

Well I wasn't advocating really a insertion of a electronic device, besides faffing around with an anaesthetic with a syringe would be just not viable, however I was unaware that the insertion of such a device required that.

Gathering information by anglers on captures, especially on Rivers that have seen a decline I believe would be beneficial, of course this is not a new concept,and is adopted for other species, such a study would perhaps give us a real insight in Barbel movements. After all we are as you say many are only too willing to record our captures on here, just a bit more effort by the very people who would benefit by such a scheme (Anglers) perhaps?
 
You don't need anesthetic (do you anesthetist a fish before you strike the hook home?).

We recently had a consignment of Carp stocked into one of our lakes and all the fish were micro-chipped.
It was a very quick and easy procedure, and I'm assuming it would be the same on any other fish.

Steve
 
I watched the old master (John Wilson) his guide was inserting chips in Sturgeon on the telly last week :) A new take on fish 'n' chips I suppose, best get that out of the way.
 
Karen twines research has been partially funded by the EA, which i think she is going to be working for in the not so far future..
Brilliant research, but the only reason is to try and yet again hood wink everyone into thinking the Barbel are still there and have not been eaten by you know who..
Its all part of the EA propaganda machine, which as we all know is absulute rubbish and a pack of lies..
After spending the last few years saying Otters were the problem, i now think otherwise..I actually believe the Otter will be in trouble AGAIN in the coming years because the bigger problem has not gone away, and i strongly believe the EA dont want people learning the truth, so hey ho lets release some Otters and fool everyone that everything is ok..
The BIGGEST problem is the water authorities, who are polluting our rivers DAILY. The EU will be imposing fines this year to ALL our water authorities and the EA because our rivers water quality is well below EU standards.
Just by coincedence the EA plan to change licence costs next year...I wonder why.?..Perhaps to cover the fines that WILL be imposed..
The Otter is not the problem, its the idiots who we trust to make sure that our rivers are looked after that are the problem..
When i used to fish in the Midlands, particually the Lower Severn i used to drive past some lakes on the way there called MOORLANDS, they had a sign outside their lakes saying.."THE FUTURE OF FISHING"....Well i used to laugh at this everytime i passed it, now its looking more like the truth...
 
I stand corrected, Steve. Tags would be useful, but once again rely on the honesty of those who may wish to protect their location. Trackers can be monitored by those who may not even be abglers.
 
Having tagged/tracked/monitored the barbel numbers and movements over a period of (say) ten years, what would you then propose to do?
Cull the predators? Create fry sanctuary areas?
If you believe these sort of measures would be helpful, why not implement them now rather than waiting ten years for the results of your survey?
 
I really would be to monitor the the actual number of tagged fish caught, of course that would depend on the Angler recording the capture. But if only 50% did so we would have a greater understanding of Barbel movements / recaptures / weight gain and so on.

I am sure most will agree that Barbel are a mysterious creature that unlike most other fish seem to have no particular roots in a waterway. As the Ouse survey suggests some will stay put, but just where do the majority go, and what distances attained? Obviously the biggest stimulas for the Barbel to travel would be to breed, and then of course the food requirement.

The Ouse is a small River system, especially where the survey was undertaken, I would love to know the exploits of fish in the Severn or Trent, Thames, where they can one minute be here and the next gone, (apparently), after all in such Rivers fish spotting is not really possible

We as anglers are ideally placed to provide the simple data that might just help us in the understanding of the ways of the Barbel.

Just counting the days :)
 
I believe the full write up for Karen's thesis is pretty much finished now, hopefully we will all be able to form our own conclusions from this very interesting study in short time. Personally I strongly believe that all species of fish in the Ouse are in decline which is indicative of a failing environment as a whole and I'm not sure whether her study of a few of one species of fish over a relatively short period of time will go a long way to identifying the real issues with the river but it may help us to understand just why barbel seem to have been struggling more than most species in recent times.
I honestly believe that the EA already have a pretty good idea of the real issues behind the Great Ouse's apparent decline and its just that they don't have the resources or inclination to properly address them, hence the recent stockings of 30, 000 young barbel... its not really fixing the problems but it should keep a few of us quiet for a while:mad:
 
Perhaps there were just too many barbel for the good of the Ouse, perhaps there were too many barbel for many other Rivers too, and the reduction in numbers is merely natures way of addressing the balance?

Of course on here we are up in arms about or favoured species and it's assumed reduction in numbers, but I for one would accept that if the River systems as a whole benefited, allowing other species to flourish then that would be fine.

Some treat the Barbel as though it has a right to be the dominant or even only species that has the right to be there, sort of big carp only syndrome, but considering that many now barbel anglers are ex carpers that is hardly surprising really.

I believe we need to look at all aspects of what our rivers have to offer and stop just focusing on one species, to me the decline in any species is a concern.
 
Just as your starter for ten Neil, the only possible reason for one species to become dominant over any other is that the current state of the water in question is more suited to the survival of that species. Or, more probably, that the present dominant species is stronger and more able to withstand the poor quality of the water in general than the more delicate species, those whose well being demands a higher level of this or that...or just less pollution.

Is that the fault of the fish? Or could it just be that the EA and other bodies have worked that out for themselves. That the decades of corruption where for certain considerations (which lead to instructions from above) the waterways have been allowed to deteriorate, becoming an ever more convenient dumping grounds for raw sewage and toxic chemicals....and that barbel seem peculiarly capable of surviving where others fail, particularly if restocking is carried out regularly, because even for them reproduction is now failing? If the tough old barbel are now starting to slowly disappear from our rivers as well, then the the quality of our rivers must be in a very poor state indeed. That our rivers are continuously failing the EU targets is a fact...that as a result we are paying fines which COULD have been used to improve our rivers is another.

The whole thing comes down to corruption Neil. Virtually every business now is privatised, and privatised business means shareholders....and shareholders need to be kept happy with ever bigger dividends each year. It is they who vote for and keep the executives in their positions running the companies...or not, depending on their performance. Therefore, the executives know there is no pity in big business, their performance is paramount. As a result, they will do...and pay...anything and anyone to improve profits year in and year out...even down to paying for blind eyes to be turned where waste dumping is concerned. That is the very least of the evils they will stoop to, trust me on that.

If you look at the Bhopal disaster in India, and countless less newsworthy incidents that get swept under the carpet and forgotten week in, week out. The wiping out of whole river systems in Africa, Asia, South America and other continents by mining and other industries, rivers which vast areas and entire peoples depended on. The shortened lives of whole other communities brought about by a myriad of other industrial discharges going into the air, rivers and land unchecked, because the proper controls are non existent in these countries...it is quite simply staggering. The controls to stop this happening are not there simply because the companies involved can massively bribe the corrupt local governments at will, to allow any inhuman act they wish to pass unnoticed or uncared about. These incidents, and the recent fires and building collapses that have killed thousands of slave labourers to keep clothing retailers in this country in massive profits are only a tiny percentage of the appalling human misery that the press manages to latch onto. If you want to think deeply enough about the long term, ongoing human catastrophe, the unspeakable misery big business happily condemns billions of others third world peoples to, in order to keep their shareholders content...then you begin to see that pollution in our rivers is only the tiny tip of an unbelievably big iceberg indeed. Corrupt third world governments are paid massive amounts to hide the scale of the harm we in the west do to keep our privatised industries and shareholders happy...because on that one factor alone our whole economies depend.

Do you think it an accident that the massive sums in foreign aid that we keep pumping into these countries ends up in government hands, that local tinpot 'presidents' add another Roller and Lamborghini to their massive stable of similar cars they already own, while the poor still starve....can possibly be common knowledge to everyone except our governments? Wake up and smell the napalm people....it can only last so long, and the cracks in the slightly crumbling western economies are but a forerunner of things to come.

OK, OK, I admit I am even more miserable than usual at the moment, because I haven't been able to walk for two weeks now....and I have no idea if I will be back on my feet for the glorious sixteenth. BUT, let's be honest folk, we all know (or ruddy well should do) that everything I have said above is a fact....and I think they kind of put my VERY minor problems into context, don't you think? But...I am only human, so I do still feel a bit peed off :eek:

Tight lines for the 16th lads...we have spent enough time planning and buying new gear and threatening to murder each other as ever during the close that we should be well fired up and frothing at the mouth to slaughter 'em by now :D

Cheers, Dave.
 
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I appreciate there is probably just not one convenient cause to blame Dave, it really is a concoction of all we have discussed and possibly some that we haven't (yet) :rolleyes:

But I an encouraged that when someone recently posted on here that there seems to be a return of other species such as Dace to his bit of River, and that I believe is where barbel are in decline, so there is possibly some sort of change happening?

Of course we are all Barbel nuts, it really is an addiction for many, and when a junkie is denied his 'fix' strange things happen, so I guess we as Anglers first and foremost should look at the whole picture.

You do paint a pretty grim scenario, and you are probably right to a large extent, but let's hope nature is strong enough to resist all the other pressures placed on her by the hand of man. Although I fear that there is not the will by those that could change things to do so for the sake of greed. (Thames).
 
Study Confirms Estrogen in Water from the Pill Devastating to Fish Populations
by LifeSiteNews.com
Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:15 EST Comments ()
By Hilary White

ST. JOHN, New Brunswick, February 18, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A study by Dr. Karen Kidd, of the University of New Brunswick and the Canadian Rivers Institute, found that estrogen from birth control pills flooding into the water system through sewage adversely affects fish populations.

The researchers added estrogen to an experimental lake at a level commonly found in the treated wastewater from cities with about 200,000 people. The researchers discovered that one consequence is that exposed male fish become feminized, producing a protein normally found in females. Chronic exposure to estrogen led to the near extinction of the lake’s fathead minnow population, as well as significant declines in larger fish, such as pearl dace and lake trout.

"We’ve known for some time that estrogen can adversely affect the reproductive health of fish, but ours was the first study to show the long-term impact on the sustainability of wild fish populations," explains Kidd.

"What we demonstrated is that estrogen can wipe out entire populations of small fish - a key food source for larger fish whose survival could in turn be threatened over the longer term."

Kidd also noted that once the estrogen levels in the water were lowered, fish populations rebounded after three years. "Once you take the stressor out the system, we now have ample evidence that suggests affected fish populations will recover," she said.

Kidd is preparing a report for the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) titled, "From Kitchen Sinks to Ocean Basins: Emerging Chemical Contaminants and Human Health".

In the 1980’s and 90’s, municipalities in Canada and elsewhere began stencilling pictures of fish next to storm drains to remind citizens that toxic chemicals - such as paint and motor oil - poured into the sewers would harm the environment and wildlife. In 1998, a trendy industrial designer in San Francisco won an award for creating storm drain grates shaped like fish.

Health authorities estimate that 100 million women worldwide take some form of hormonal contraceptives; but there is still little media attention given to the growing concerns of scientists about its environmental impact. However, studies are leaking out into the mainstream press more frequently as public interest in the environment grows.

The Pill, along with numerous other commonly used chemicals, end up in the water system as estrogen. At a conference on breast cancer in Toronto in 1998, author and cancer surgeon Dr. Susan Love said, "Pollutants are metabolized in our bodies as estrogen. And it is lifetime exposure to estrogen that has increased world cancer rates by 26% since 1980….We live in a toxic soup of chemicals".

Studies are also showing significant evidence for a link between environmental estrogens and estrogen-like chemical pollutants and the earlier onset of puberty in girls.

The phenomenon of early-onset puberty in American girls is so pervasive, that the Lawson Wilkins Pediatric Endocrine Society urged changing the definition of abnormal development. Ten years ago, breast development at age 8 was considered abnormally early, but a study in 1997 said that among 17,000 girls in North Carolina, almost half of blacks and 15 percent of whites had begun breast development by age 8. Studies from the United Kingdom, Canada, and New Zealand have shown similar results.

The new definition for abnormally early breast development ought to be, the society says, 7 for white girls and 6 for black girls. Marcia Herman-Giddens, adjunct professor at the School of Public Health at the University of North Carolina, said, "My fear is that medical groups could take the data and say ‘This is normal. We don’t have to worry about it.’ My feeling is that it is not normal. It’s a response to an abnormal environment."

Conclusive studies are difficult to conduct, however, because of the all-pervasive nature of the environmental contamination. With all the estrogen-like elements in the environment, Herman-Giddens said, "it’s virtually impossible to study. There’s no place to find an unexposed population."

Read related LifeSiteNews.com coverage:

Hormonal Contraceptives Pollute Drinking Water - Environmentalists Turn a Blind Eye
http://www.lifesite
 
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