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Great Ouse Barbel Study

Ian Hugo Arnott said:
A fascinating subject for a PhD

Karen Gemma Twine - University of Hull



Hugo
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Yes...a thorny one this, because I can't help feeling that perhaps during her work she draws some rather flawed conclusions from the evidence she has unearthed. Her research is being carried out not only as a thesis, but to address anglers fears that barbel stocks in the Gt. Ouse are very low now, and getting worse due to low recruitment. She discovered that anglers fears are based on the number of fish they now catch, compared to what they used to catch in previous years in any given swim. If I remember right, she electro fished certain areas and tagged some of the larger fish caught which meant that she could follow their movements and habits by locating them each time she visited the river with her special equipment. Incidentally, during that same electro fishing campaign that was carried out she also found that there were some young fish present, mixed in with larger fish (though none of the monsters of yesteryear)

As part of her research, she went around the swims where the angler in residence was complaining that they could not catch anything, and checked it with her locater. On occasions she was able to locate one or two of her tagged fish in that swim.

I have not read all of her papers in depth to be fair to her (and may not understand them fully if I did :p) so my thoughts are based on less evidence than they should be....but it SEEMS her conclusions from that evidence above are these....

(A) The fish are present in anglers swims, but that either those fish have changed their habits, or the anglers are not fishing well enough to catch them, which leads the angler to the conclusion that less fish are now present than actually are.

(B) The fact that young fish were present proved to her that, contrary to anglers claims, natural recruitment was going on. All of which added up to the fact that the Ouse had a reasonably healthy stock level that would increase in time, and that anglers fears were actually groundless.

My points are....

(A) She is basing her conclusions on the current stock levels, with little or no accurate data to compare stock now to those of, say, 10 years back....which skews things from the start.

(B) Her claim that if an angler catches nothing in a swim that she can prove (by using her tracing equipment) holds at least one or two barbel...then either the problem must actually lie with the anglers poor technique....or that the fish have changed their habits....and not that the stock levels are low, as claimed. Now that takes an unduly large leap in faith to draw that conclusion from the evidence she has, in my opinion. Lets face it, setting aside the odd rare occurrence where an angler catches one or both of the only two fish he is aware of in a swim....how many fish (on average) does it take to provoke the competitive factor that allows you to catch one or more barbel in any given swim, before the others get wary? I will lay you any money you like that on average it is a lot more than the one or two that she knows are present...yet that slender evidence seems to be what she is basing her conclusions on.

(C) how does finding a few young fish present in some swims prove that natural recruitment is going on at the levels required to maintain a decent stocking level...or heaven forbid, bring the river back to it's former glory? The young fish found may equally well mean that there is the odd breeding success, but that is not enough to maintain current levels, let alone improve on that.

As an exercise to allay anglers fears that stock levels are hopelessly low, I guess that study works reasonably well...but I have fears that that is all it is, rather than the accurate study based on ALL the relevant facts that we need. That should surely be carried out by scientists who have not only extensive knowledge in their own field...but a decent working knowledge of angling, to allow them to draw fairly accurate conclusions when that is factored in with the scientific data they turn up.

Just my thoughts on this Ian...and I may be hopelessly wrong...but yes, I agree that it is a fascinating subjects for the young lady to base her thesis on :D what wouldn't I have given for an opportunity like that when I were a young 'un! (no unkind comments about that last please, lol)

cheers, Dave.
 
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David,

A very sound reply. I shall be fishing the Great Ouse this coming season and have read some of Karen Twine's work. It is fascinating how some barbel stay put when others move around a great deal.

It is good to know that there are young fish but one wonders how many.

Regards,

Hugo


 
Ian Hugo Arnott said:
David,

A very sound reply. I shall be fishing the Great Ouse this coming season and have read some of Karen Twine's work. It is fascinating how some barbel stay put when others move around a great deal.

It is good to know that there are young fish but one wonders how many.

Regards,

Hugo
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Some have a more powerful libido than others I guess Ian....they may have named me the 'Traveller' when I was young, had I been a barbel. Then again, I am more than a little shy of a record size...so I doubt they would have bothered :D

Cheers, Dave.
 
I dont think the final report has been released yet, rather karen has released a few sumary reports and done a few slideshows for angling clubs. Dave has summed it up quitewell.

One of the more contentious issues to come from the summaries is the fact that all 20 tagged fish survived; and this was taken as evidence that otters were not predating on the barbel population! I dont necessarily agree with that, otters eat anythingtheycome across.

Also because all 20 fish survived that perhaps this is evidence tht the population hasnt crashed as much as anglers think. Like dave suggests, without knowing what the barbel numbers were like 15 years ago this is impossible to quantify. Anglers catch returns definately suggest that numbers have crashed.

When you find the barbel on the Ouse they are just as catchable as they have ever been. Its just they are very hard to find now as their numbers are so low! They havent become super intelligent overnight. Lack of numbers can perhaps mean they are more selective due to lack of competition and, perhaps, harder to catch because of that.

It will be interesting to see if the report mentions how they got the 20 tagged fish. Off the top of my head (and ridiculously retarded memory) the fish came from 3 sites. The 2 biggest fish came from the same site, a once prolific barbel stretch of about 500 yards or so, these were the ONLY fish on the stretch. 2 barbel, 500 yards of river, bad. The point being they struggled to find barbel to tag.

They found the rest of the fish in areas where the barbel gather to spawn, a fewmiles upstream from where the 2 biggies came from. The 2 biggies swam well upstream and joined these other fish on the very same night they were tagged. Natural spawning migration or pee'd off because they'd been caught?

Im waiting to see the final report and conclusions before fully judging the work as we are only working with titbits at the minute. If anything it will be interesting.

Edit

The EA have thrown THIRTY THOUSAND baby barbel in the Ouse over the last 5 years. They know there isn't a self perpetuating barbel population.
 
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Does this woman's thesis have an aim to allay barbel anglers fears? If so, why? Has she been prompted by the EA? As an obviously intelligent woman she should realise that the best barometer to a changing barbel population are anglers. People who spend a great deal of their time on the river and witness first hand it's fluctuations and which species dominates in different eras. This is far more reliable than a one off study, whether for a PhD or not. As Ash says, the barbel do not suddenly become super intelligent overnight.
 
I said this before when this was thrown up before, who does this completely unbiased scientist work for now? I'll probably get the same how dare you sir you’re a cad and a bounder replies.
Some highly paid unbiased scientists employed by the tobacco industry are still proving burned tobacco is positively beneficial!
 
So all 20 survived, and this over quite a long stretch of river. Maybe the otters just can't be arsed to look for those few that are left and carry out their hunting elsewhere.

All of us Ouse anglers know that this river is a shadow of what it was, ten years ago. This year will mark my third season for leaving my rods in the utility. :(
 
Most rivers are shadows of what they were Chris. Yet we all know the EA will use studies like this that make fatuous claims that anglers are lacking skill and fish are wising up, to claim we are all exaggerating. They will prefer the conclusion of one young graduate to hundreds of experienced anglers, many with degrees in fishery management and similar. This is why, in the unlikely event of our rivers ever getting back to where they were, it will be in spite of, and not because of, the EA.
 
I am certainly not qualified to talk about the Ouse but our local Tench lakes have the same number of fish that they ever have, possibly more, and the anglers are complaining that they are "Ottered out" because they are not catching. The only flaws in their argument are the fact that there has not been a single witnessed sighting of an Otter or evidence of spraints. In addition they are fishing in exactly the same manner as they always have and blanking while the anglers who are prepared to explore new presentations are still catching the same as ever.

Perhaps, just perhaps, there is more to it than the kill them all brigade would have you believe,
 
The fact is barbel have been found that have been partially eaten for the best part of twenty years. This includes numerous known fish that suddenly disappeared or were found half eaten, fact. In the same time frame, otters have appeared and are thriving. On the flip side barbel numbers are clealy dwindling, QED. It's not rocket science.

Sure, otters are not the only factor in considering the barbel's demise. In the same period we have seen the explosion and geographical expansion of the crayfish. Once again, fish stocks have dropped yet average fish size has grown substantially for barbel and chub.
Lastly, low flows and the destruction of spawning sites have compounded the problems.

Just because a couple of barbel are present in a swim but not being caught does not allow one to concluded that they are getting smarter or anglers dumber! Barbel do not feed day and night all year round, unless I am mistaken?

Stephen
 
It's not just the poor returns from anglers on rivers though Richard. On rivers like the Cherwell and Windrush most barbel areas offer visual confirmation of fish. There are quite simply no barbel to be seen any more. Ten years ago on the Windrush a half mile walk would reveal up to thirty barbel, now you may see a couple of trout. There probably is more to it than the kill them all brigade would have you believe, but anyone who thinks most of our rivers barbel populations have not crashed is not living in the real world.
 
Richard Hamlyn said:
and the anglers are complaining that they are "Ottered out" because they are not catching. The only flaws in their argument are the fact that there has not been a single witnessed sighting of an Otter or evidence of spraints.
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I have copied this Richard as I am truly amazed if this is the case. Perhaps the Ouse regulars would care to comment about the lack of evidence regarding Otter in the Ouse.
 
Neil Smart said:
I have copied this Richard as I am truly amazed if this is the case. Perhaps the Ouse regulars would care to comment about the lack of evidence regarding Otter in the Ouse.
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Errr think you need to read Richards message again Neil, he's referring to his local Tench lakes
 
It did seem unusual to me back in the 1990's on the Ouse with Calverton fish caught in June were around the same weight they were in the previous march. A 14lb 2 oz fish in June had been 14lb 6oz in March .They seemed to go through the spawning process,but were not losing the weight.At the same time Otters were starting to appear on two of the sections i fished.Also after 10pm in winter the weir at Turvey used to foam sometimes as much as 10 feet high, was this possibly caused by the upstream pumping station putting out something naughty.There seems to be many reasons for the issues the Ouse has,put them all together and we end up in the situation we have now.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Smart
I have copied this Richard as I am truly amazed if this is the case. Perhaps the Ouse regulars would care to comment about the lack of evidence regarding Otter in the Ouse.
Errr think you need to read Richards message again Neil, he's referring to his local Tench lakes
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I believe that Richard WAS referring to his local tench lakes as an example on a thread about the Great Ouse... I'm not sure how the two are connected to be honest though:confused:

When I first started targeting the barbel of this river, soon after the turn of the millenium there were fish aplenty. We were spoilt for choice with viable stretches and at times it was more of a problem to find a parking space on some venues than finding a swim with fish in it. My first year on the river didn't commence until well into October but even then as a complete novice I landed 37 barbel between then and the end of the season, if only I knew then what I know now:mad:. Despite spending many hours on the bank I didn't see a single otter until some years later and when I did it was still a very rare occurence.
Contrast that with the season before last when I spent a good few months targeting the river's barbel during autumn and had 37 positive otter sightings on various venues, in fact over the last few years there isn't a stretch of the Ouse that I have fished after dark for more than a few sessions where I haven't seen otters. Those few months during 2011 I caught more than my fair share of barbel whilst many around me were struggling, sure fish were there to be caught but not in the numbers they used to be and I had to work bloody hard for each capture.
I have only witnessed one definite otter kill actually taking place and to be honest other than during a few prolonged cold snaps I haven't witnessed loads of carcasses strewn across the banks either but in reality would I expect to? I only occasionaly find the remains of fox kills but nobody debates that these happen do they?
Otters are not the cause of all the Ouse's problems but they are the straw the has in all likelyhood broken the camels back on this river, I think the only thing as equally ignorant as the "kill everything brigade" are those who would try to have you believe that the reintroduction of otters to an environment through whatever means, isn't going to have had a major impact on the specimen fish stocks that live within it:mad: Regardless, otters are here to stay and there is nothing any amount of keyboard tapping is going to do to change that so if Ms Twine's paper has a positive impact on the fish life in the Great Ouse then great...if not then I'll carry on doing my best to catch my fair share of barbel from what is left of the dwindling stocks:mad::mad::mad:
 
gt ouse barbel study

i moved from essex to clapham bedford for the simple reason to fish the ouse this was june 2006 i was a bailiff on yauxhall & verulum streches from bedford going upstream i only speak for myself having attended the talk given by karen at the verulum meeting on the ouse at felmersham but the stock level,water exstraction ,new houses,foreighs taking fish for the pot,at clapham sitting in the pub gardens from june through sept you were lucky to see the river move its alive with thick weed proberly only inches deep where in the sixtys it used to flood across the A6 not the bye pass so in 50 years where has all that water gone?i would not recomend anybody buying tickets for these stretches better off higher up or trying below bedford maybe the ivel but its hard,well thats my rant over with as i now live ib the phillipines with no fish in the rivers or close to the shore in the seas its a boat or nothing
 
Stewart Harris said:
I believe that Richard WAS referring to his local tench lakes as an example on a thread about the Great Ouse... I'm not sure how the two are connected to be honest though:confused:

When I first started targeting the barbel of this river, soon after the turn of the millenium there were fish aplenty. We were spoilt for choice with viable stretches and at times it was more of a problem to find a parking space on some venues than finding a swim with fish in it. My first year on the river didn't commence until well into October but even then as a complete novice I landed 37 barbel between then and the end of the season, if only I knew then what I know now:mad:. Despite spending many hours on the bank I didn't see a single otter until some years later and when I did it was still a very rare occurence.
Contrast that with the season before last when I spent a good few months targeting the river's barbel during autumn and had 37 positive otter sightings on various venues, in fact over the last few years there isn't a stretch of the Ouse that I have fished after dark for more than a few sessions where I haven't seen otters. Those few months during 2011 I caught more than my fair share of barbel whilst many around me were struggling, sure fish were there to be caught but not in the numbers they used to be and I had to work bloody hard for each capture.
I have only witnessed one definite otter kill actually taking place and to be honest other than during a few prolonged cold snaps I haven't witnessed loads of carcasses strewn across the banks either but in reality would I expect to? I only occasionaly find the remains of fox kills but nobody debates that these happen do they?
Otters are not the cause of all the Ouse's problems but they are the straw the has in all likelyhood broken the camels back on this river, I think the only thing as equally ignorant as the "kill everything brigade" are those who would try to have you believe that the reintroduction of otters to an environment through whatever means, isn't going to have had a major impact on the specimen fish stocks that live within it:mad: Regardless, otters are here to stay and there is nothing any amount of keyboard tapping is going to do to change that so if Ms Twine's paper has a positive impact on the fish life in the Great Ouse then great...if not then I'll carry on doing my best to catch my fair share of barbel from what is left of the dwindling stocks:mad::mad::mad:
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Richard, that is one of the best posts, with more original thoughts in it, that I have seen on this subject for a very long time. Very well done. And PLEASE don't get put off by the nay sayers and those in denial...with any luck they are too busy trying to convince the world that otters are vegetarians to bother you much, but either way, keep on working at it and coming up with original thoughts...I love it.

Cheers, Dave.
 
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