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Cormorant Petition

Any issues regarding angling need to be made public. The average person has no idea of the pressures our waterways come under from a range of sources. Taking fishing out of the equation for a minute, damage to fish stocks will ruin the whole eco-system. If people want action then it needs the prominent bodies in angling/nature to send incidents like the one highlighted by Martin Bowler to the national press, organisations and to programmes such as Springwatch to make people aware of what is happening.
 
Andrew Boyne said:
We also need to stop alienating ourselves from everyone else by calling for culs on anything that eats fish. Bordering on the dark ages of throwing pike up the bank. Trying to get public suppport for a cul on anything is next to impossible these days and puts us in a very bad light.

What do we actually want as Barbel anglers? We want clean healthy river systems with self sustaining populations of fish to catch.

What do otter lovers want? They want clean healthy river systems with self sustaining populations of fish for them to eat.

What do bird watches want? They want clean healthy river systems with self sustaining populations of fish to feed the likes of Kingfishers, Gooseanders, Herons and Ospreys.

Do you see my point yet? Why then do so many of us want to fight these other groups - we should be standing alongside them and fighting for the same thing.
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Spot on .
 
Andrew Boyne said:
We also need to stop alienating ourselves from everyone else by calling for culs on anything that eats fish. Bordering on the dark ages of throwing pike up the bank. Trying to get public suppport for a cul on anything is next to impossible these days and puts us in a very bad light.

What do we actually want as Barbel anglers? We want clean healthy river systems with self sustaining populations of fish to catch.

What do otter lovers want? They want clean healthy river systems with self sustaining populations of fish for them to eat.

What do bird watches want? They want clean healthy river systems with self sustaining populations of fish to feed the likes of Kingfishers, Gooseanders, Herons and Ospreys.

Do you see my point yet? Why then do so many of us want to fight these other groups - we should be standing alongside them and fighting for the same thing.
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The vast majority of anglers do not want a cull on anything that eats fish. I think that we all like to see Kingfishers, Grebes and Herons. These are indiginous freshwater birds and their impact is of no consequence. You just can't include cormorants in this group? Cormorants are an alien predator in our freshwaters. Would I support a cull on "cute" grey squirrels, and see our own native red ones back, absolutely. And so would many others, in fact it's happening now and I see no public support for the greys whatsoever. So culls are acceptable, in principle. I've mentioned earlier that the RSPB are quite capable of culling birds i.e. crows and ruddy ducks. In fact the RSPB have virtually wiped out the ruddy duck population in the UK. As for a self-sustaining population of fish for otters, well there won't be many fish left for the otters if the cormorants are left unchecked.
 
Jim Foxall said:
The vast majority of anglers do not want a cull on anything that eats fish. I think that we all like to see Kingfishers, Grebes and Herons. These are indiginous freshwater birds and their impact is of no consequence. You just can't include cormorants in this group? Cormorants are an alien predator in our freshwaters. Would I support a cull on "cute" grey squirrels, and see our own native red ones back, absolutely. And so would many others, in fact it's happening now and I see no public support for the greys whatsoever. So culls are acceptable, in principle. I've mentioned earlier that the RSPB are quite capable of culling birds i.e. crows and ruddy ducks. In fact the RSPB have virtually wiped out the ruddy duck population in the UK. As for a self-sustaining population of fish for otters, well there won't be many fish left for the otters if the cormorants are left unchecked.
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Spot on Jim. While I sympathise with the idealistic views of Andrew and Mike, I think the chances of these disparate organisations getting together to fight pollution as one unified body is disappearingly small...we can't even stop fighting each other within our own sport for heavens sake :p There are too many egos at stake for a start, not to mention age old battle wounds that are still festering below the surface.

I would love to see it happen, because most other outdoor pursuit bodies are streets ahead of us where organisation, determination...and willingness to spend money to achieve their aims are concerned. Sadly, while the other two bodies Andrew mentions might well join with each other if the occasion arose, we are way too divided within ourselves to be effective partners in any such venture. Sad...but I think true :eek:

Cheers, Dave.
 
David,

For once, I would agree with everything you have said there. It is truly sad that we cannot get our act together under one banner. Whilst the Angling Trust is gathering pace, albeit reasonably slowly, I believe it to be the only realistic way forward.

Regards,

Jeff
 
Dave Gauntlet’s comment are so true regarding our inability to show a united front and he cited ego’s and “old wounds†as factors, and this has got me thinking as I have a fondness for trying to understand the root causes of things. We are undoubtedly a fractured community broadly divided between Sea, Game, Coarse Match, Coarse Pleasure and Coarse Specimen. We can then subdivide within Coarse Specimen between those that fish for Barbel, Carp, Tench etc. If that were not bad enough you do not have to spend long on this forum to find out that even within the Barbel world there are ego’s and old wounds a plenty; but why?

What it boils down to is that all we are trying to do is catch a fish. Not only that but we are trying to catch a fish that is not exactly difficult to catch. Providing you have not made the thing nervous and you have presented something it is not wary of eating in a quiet and subtle manner then it will reward you by trying to pull your rod into the river. This is the worst case scenario where fish are somewhat pressured. In other situations you can stomp up to your chosen swim thump your gear down, spend the next 30 minutes padooshing in a feeder packed with pellets that the fish has been caught on 100 times, thus scaring every other living thing in your swim except the suicidal Barbel which once again rewards your abysmal lack of ability by trying to pull your rod into the river again. If a Tench is Einstein then the Barbel is Wayne Roony. Therefore you would think that if a person concerned with promoting their ego was looking for a medium in which to pursue their delusions then Barbel fishing would be the very last choice due to the intrinsic lack of angling skill required. But no, what we actually find is people who have raised the catching of these fish onto a level where only the very few can exist in a rareified air of their own self-importance. The rest (the majority) of us just get on with yanking the things out of the water and enjoying the fact that they give exciting bites and hang on a bit before coming to the net, usually in less than 3 minutes providing you don’t fanny about with them. These angling God’s then proceed to open wounds in each other by bickering over bugger all of any importance, and all this over catching a stupid fish.

“So what harm does it do†I hear you ask if these guys want snipe at each other on line? The harm is done to the rest of us who just go fishing for the fun of it and do not consider ourselves special because we can catch them. Although we are the majority who would happily support other anglers who fish differently to ourselves in the interests of a common cause, the only ones who seem to be listened to are the ego maniacs.

Sorry if this post sounds defeatist, but until we can get ego’s out of what we do then I fear there really is no way forward.

Richard
 
Richard Hamlyn said:
Dave Gauntlet’s comment are so true regarding our inability to show a united front and he cited ego’s and “old wounds†as factors, and this has got me thinking as I have a fondness for trying to understand the root causes of things. We are undoubtedly a fractured community broadly divided between Sea, Game, Coarse Match, Coarse Pleasure and Coarse Specimen. We can then subdivide within Coarse Specimen between those that fish for Barbel, Carp, Tench etc. If that were not bad enough you do not have to spend long on this forum to find out that even within the Barbel world there are ego’s and old wounds a plenty; but why?

What it boils down to is that all we are trying to do is catch a fish. Not only that but we are trying to catch a fish that is not exactly difficult to catch. Providing you have not made the thing nervous and you have presented something it is not wary of eating in a quiet and subtle manner then it will reward you by trying to pull your rod into the river. This is the worst case scenario where fish are somewhat pressured. In other situations you can stomp up to your chosen swim thump your gear down, spend the next 30 minutes padooshing in a feeder packed with pellets that the fish has been caught on 100 times, thus scaring every other living thing in your swim except the suicidal Barbel which once again rewards your abysmal lack of ability by trying to pull your rod into the river again. If a Tench is Einstein then the Barbel is Wayne Roony. Therefore you would think that if a person concerned with promoting their ego was looking for a medium in which to pursue their delusions then Barbel fishing would be the very last choice due to the intrinsic lack of angling skill required. But no, what we actually find is people who have raised the catching of these fish onto a level where only the very few can exist in a rareified air of their own self-importance. The rest (the majority) of us just get on with yanking the things out of the water and enjoying the fact that they give exciting bites and hang on a bit before coming to the net, usually in less than 3 minutes providing you don’t fanny about with them. These angling God’s then proceed to open wounds in each other by bickering over bugger all of any importance, and all this over catching a stupid fish.

“So what harm does it do†I hear you ask if these guys want snipe at each other on line? The harm is done to the rest of us who just go fishing for the fun of it and do not consider ourselves special because we can catch them. Although we are the majority who would happily support other anglers who fish differently to ourselves in the interests of a common cause, the only ones who seem to be listened to are the ego maniacs.

Sorry if this post sounds defeatist, but until we can get ego’s out of what we do then I fear there really is no way forward.

Richard
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My view is that there are some fundamental aspects of human nature that will play out in virtually every community you are part of. Whether its work, friends, sports teams-it doesn't matter. It is generally based around status. And within each community, status can be defined quite differently. In some it is money and material possessions, in others it can be looks or humour. Status can be clear and well articulated (in business or the army for example) or it can be unwritten but somehow well understood. Staus is important because it helps to validate who we are and how we are defined. This, in turn, creates security and safety. A virtual community such as BFW will operate in braodly the same way as any other but with some distortion because of the ability to hide behind prose. And this is where ego's can be encountered and some ugliness between folk in how they respond to posts etc plus you have natural clashes of personality and mentality. So I think it is inevitable that we see the darker side of community culture that you highlight in your post. Those who's egos are more openly exhibited, might define themselves more strongly by their angling prowess and so seek greater validation through their interactions on sites such as this one (and to be clear, I do not mean this in any critical way). This means they have more at stake. Because I freely admit to being an angler of average ability at best, then I am less sensitive to the interactions I witness or actively participate in. So you will never remove ego-you just have to choose to ignore it I think and take, and contribute, in a way that suits you and which is true to your principles and beliefs.
 
Nick,

I'm not sure what fire you are referring to. I'm just trying to make the point that if you remove ego from fishing then everybodies a winner. It makes you as a person a better angler, as you see what you do in perspective, and it makes for a more peaceful environment all round.

Richard
 
Just called in at a local fishery today to see about a dozen or more cormorants pillaging silver fish.

When there is a war, everyone, all social classes, from all parts of the country will unite against a common enemy.

I see no difference with the cormorant issue, all fishermen, salmon, coarse, specimen etc must unite against our common enemy. When that has been defeated then we can all go back to our bickering ways.

These birds are a massive threat, I've just seen far too much of them in action over the last few months. I don't want to be alarmist but egos or no egos, agendas or no agendas, we must pull together on this one and pretty damn quick.
 
I just can't see how people with huge egos about fishing get that way, or why they have to be so aggressive about it all. As far as I can tell, I have no ego as far as fishing is concerned. I happily admit that I am no great shakes as an angler...I really do just go for the fun of it. I haven't been for a while because I got bored with it, and absolutely agree that barbel are relatively simple to catch. I have caught some very nice fish, most of which I don't publicise...because it doesn't matter. At the end of the day, what exactly have I achieved? I go down to the river with a bit of bait, rather inexpertly lob a lump of it out...and sometimes a barbel or two grab hold of it, sometimes not. On the occasions when they did, I have no idea whether I did something differently or not...which would suggest to me that I just got lucky :D Either way, on the occasions when I do catch...is that REALLY something to get all precious about :rolleyes: I don't bleedin think so!

When I was carp fishing I caught some very nice fish, but didn't even bother taking photo's of them at first, until I got moaned at by friends. So, I did as I was told, which I think is just a social thing...you catch a fish, everybody gathers round and takes a pretty picture...cups of tea and back patting all round...whack the bait back out and go back to sleep. (Hell of an acheivment, don't you think?) What that meant was I now have an album full of very nice fish which (sadly for the fish) appear to have my ugly mug perched on top of them :p I neither remember the weights of most of them...nor care. It is certainly not noted on the photo's.

So...can someone PLEASE tell me why anyone thinks that catching fish makes them something special/exceptional/legends in their own lunch break? It's just ruddy fishing lads! Those who can't see that...get over yourselves :D A bit of friendly banter and fun competitiveness amongst mates is one thing....the other thing really need dealing with!

Once that's done, we can all get on with each other....and the bonus is, the toys stop flying out of the pram every five minutes, tripping everyone else up...so we can get what needs doing done.

Cheers, Dave.
 
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That's sentiment that resonates with me and I am sure many others Dave. But ego exists to varying degrees in all of us. Ego might just be expressed as a desire to excel, to progress and to be recognised for doing so. It's when we see it in its extreme form and all the ugly behaviour associated with it, that we can recoil somewhat. There are just some people who feel defined by their fishing ability and achievements and at this level, they have something to protect and maintain-a reputation, and that's when the uglier side of us all can be exhibited. No right or wrong here, just perspective. Jim's earlier point about uniting against a perceived common enemy is a good one and is the time when circumstance can cut through egotism (but never completely).
 
Well back to the point of the problems with Cormorants..Theres nothing to stop anyone carrying a Black Widow catapult or even better the Black Widow Diablo coupled with some 10 to 15mm bull bearings, believe me these will kill them. Like many im not such a good shot when trying to hit targets in the trees and its not my fault if a Cormorant gets in the way..;)..By the way its not against the law to shoot with a catapult..;)
 
Dave,

Looks like you and me started life in the same patch of gravel………………

When are we going to stop coming out with this “shoot ‘em all out of the skies†mentality because it really does harm our cause with the very people we should be making our allies. Just imagine the scene around your chosen water where a significant amount of anglers are all armed. It makes no difference if the armaments are shotguns, air guns, catapults or pea shooters because the end effect will be the same. It will start with a few responsible people taking a safe shot at a cormorant and maybe killing a few. Then other less responsible people, bored because their buzzer has not beeped for a month, will start taking shots at cormorants /swans /ducks / each other to relieve the boredom. Inevitably people are going to get hurt and the controlling body for the water has to show due diligence to their insurance company if they are not going to have their backside sued off in court. In short the fishery would not be able to operate.

Now if a few carp anglers end up with a ball bearing bouncing off their heads then it will not cost me too much loss of sleep. In fact it may be the mental jolt they need to stop camping / waiting and to start fishing / catching. However the press and the pro birdie lobby will howl their heads off and the gap will be ever wider between us. The pro birdie lobby are not bad people, I happen to be one of them as I love birds AND fishing. What many of the pro birdie lobby are is a group of people who are fairly knowledgeable on birds and the fluffy side of nature but totally ignorant about fish. If we stopped behaving like a group of ignorant villagers at the end of a Frankenstein film and instead embarked on the road of trying to educate these people then TOGETHER we could form a policy (that includes organised culling where necessary) that may just actually work.

Richard
 
Quite right Richard. At the end of the day two things are required: 1) a collaborative approach and 2) hard data. Data is the most powerful thing where it is valid and compelling in what it conveys about the current status and then how that might shape the future. Showing the wider and negative impact (so not just our angling pleasure) is also key.
 
Rhys Perry said:
God Dave you're so full of it. Get over yourself!
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Rhys, my post was a genuine, honest account of how I view angling. I have no hang ups about fishing...I am under no illusions about my ability, nor do I care one jot about it. If that, and most things I say, infuriates you...I am sorry. I am also sorry that you obviously have issues you find difficult to deal with...but I am sure you are trying. Good luck :)

Cheers, Dave.
 
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