David Hall
Senior Member
when the badger cull was on, farmers were threatened, can you imagine what anglers on the bank would have to put up with, you have already seen that silly article in the daily comic.
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Cormorant Petition
- Thread starter Jeff Edisbury
- Start date
Mark Gaskell
Senior Member
hit em where it hurts!
instead of sending petitions to your mp,s send them to ea and dont pay the rod licence ,if no one or a large percentage didnt pay for three months there a rses would start to twitch,something would be done then.
instead of sending petitions to your mp,s send them to ea and dont pay the rod licence ,if no one or a large percentage didnt pay for three months there a rses would start to twitch,something would be done then.
Eddie Farrell
Senior Member
well it up to the ea to put the evidence forward to the goverment, and act quickly or like mark says, anglers will either stop paying for a licence, we pay are fees to fish, and the ea uses this money to help protect are waters and fish stocks or is going into somebody pockets, by this gets sorted out,it could be to late, theres only man for this job, and its our
lord sugar, he wont stand for any ****e, action or a boot up the arse, fired
lord sugar, he wont stand for any ****e, action or a boot up the arse, fired
Andrew Boyne
Senior Member
Spot on!
The other problem which i see is the way some anglers try to argue the case for a cull. What is the point of showing MP's, environmental protection groups, non-anglers etc etc pictures of cormorants eating fish or the carcass left buy an otter? Cormorants and Otters eat fish!
Angler: " look, look what this horrible nasty Otter/Cormorant has done to this fish "
Rest of the population: " Yes, mr angler, they eat fish - we know "
It's a shame there are so many anglers who adopt this approach with out any thought to how stupid it makes us look.
Cormorants and Otters are not the problem - the problem is the state of many of our rivers being unable to sustain apex predators through poor habitat and lack of fry recruitment. Like wise, the depleting fish stocks in our oceans.
It's about time some of us realised this and started fighting the real issues. Bleating on about Cormorants and Otters is going to get us nowhere.
Jon Frisby
Senior Member & Supporter
Some very wise comments chaps. I for one will always sign the petition for a cull the black plague can be lethal on small.waters. Only yesterday morning I counted 14 of them on my local, words do nothing to help. Action is needed now and if I sign well thats me doing my bit.
Andrew Boyne
Senior Member
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Alex Gowney
Senior Member & Supporter
The best idea mentioned is a boycott of licenses. This would need to be nationwide and organised and approved by the Angling Trust. Some chance of that happening!!
But generally authorities are only really influenced when they are hit in the pocket but it would need to be everyone refusing to buy one. No way could they go round checking every angler in the country
But generally authorities are only really influenced when they are hit in the pocket but it would need to be everyone refusing to buy one. No way could they go round checking every angler in the country
Jeff Edisbury
Senior Member
I cannot believe people are being knocked on here for doing something positive about a major problem to our fish stocks albeit one of many!
The apathy of anglers is legendary, but knocking people with daft excuses is frankly laughable, hence, the state of play that currently exists.
2-3 millionn anglers in this country, the Angling Trust has around 30,000 anglers. i'm no mathematician but that's 1%.
The RSPB MUST be laughing their heads off!!!!
Regards,
Jeff
The apathy of anglers is legendary, but knocking people with daft excuses is frankly laughable, hence, the state of play that currently exists.
2-3 millionn anglers in this country, the Angling Trust has around 30,000 anglers. i'm no mathematician but that's 1%.
The RSPB MUST be laughing their heads off!!!!
Regards,
Jeff
Andrew Boyne
Senior Member
Personnaly, i can't believe how people think that signing a petition is going to make any difference to the numbers of cormorants on our waters. Will you be out shooting them once they're on the general licence Jeff?
Let's put it to a poll - how many of you that have signed the petition will actually go out and shoot a cormorant if they end up on the general licence . . . . . . .
Let's put it to a poll - how many of you that have signed the petition will actually go out and shoot a cormorant if they end up on the general licence . . . . . . .
Jeff Edisbury
Senior Member
No Andrew, I won't because I haven't goy a license to shoot. It's not just about me, I'm doing it for the benefit of everybody. If nothing happens then fair enough, At least I tried to do something!
It does make me wonder if "members" of this forum are interlopers from organisations such as PETA?
Andrew, you really make me cringe with your comments, what would putting it to a poll achieve?
What I do know as FACT, is that numerous fishery owners and managers are frustrated by the current situation and will go out and shoot these birds IF they are put back on the general licence..................LEGALLY!
(and on my behalf, thank you guys)!!
Jeff
It does make me wonder if "members" of this forum are interlopers from organisations such as PETA?
Andrew, you really make me cringe with your comments, what would putting it to a poll achieve?
What I do know as FACT, is that numerous fishery owners and managers are frustrated by the current situation and will go out and shoot these birds IF they are put back on the general licence..................LEGALLY!
(and on my behalf, thank you guys)!!
Jeff
Andrew Boyne
Senior Member
You would do better to campaign against abstraction and pollution as your MP has suggested, at least she seems to understand the real issues.
PETA? Ha - 1,100 + posts from an animal rights looney - not bad!
Putting it to a poll, Jeff, would show that most are unwilling to do anything regarding the reduction of cormorant numbers other than signing bits of paper/e-petitions.
Your right that some commercial fishery owners/managers will shoot cormorants if they are legally allowed to do so - some already do without parliments blessing - the point is there are so few of them that they will never make an impact on cormorant numbers. What did your first post suggest, 30,000 to 60,000 birds would need shooting? Hope they've got a lot of ammo - and spare time. What about the rivers? Who's going to shoot the birds on them? The only way you will see a reduction in numbers is if you're all prepared to get a firearms licence and shoot them - Fact. Most won't - Fact - so it's utterly pointless.
Jon Frisby
Senior Member & Supporter
Locally people are doing there bit Andrew, One bailliff I know always takes his shot gun with him on his local river, which is now virtually devoid of cormorants. Yes he has a license too.
My local estate lake 3 miles from my house as the cormorant flies has just recieved its License, The license endorsed by a member of the British Trust for Ornithology and Natural England.
I will also do my bit by buying some Cartridges for him
which may alleviate the damage done on my local Res.Pointless being negative about doing something IMO, positive thinking works.
Jon Frisby
Senior Member & Supporter
Yes Andrew get the poll up and running, cannot wait....
Jim Foxall
Senior Member
Surely, we can't just sit on our hands and do nothing. At least try. If cormorants were on General Licence then it is then legally possible to take action. As it is, if you were to be caught shooting a cormorant draconian measures are in place to deal with you. A similar example is dealing with intruders, the law has changed. I agree that pollution and abstraction are major problems, but we have to fight on all fronts which threatens our waters.
Nor do I see the same public empathy with cormorants as in the case of badgers. Badgers do no harm, are cuddly, are referred to in children's books, "Brock" the badger; but unfortunately are reputedly linked to the spread of bovine TB. If this is the case then I can reluctantly see the need for some action, preferably vaccination. I just can't see much support for sea crows and no affectionate reference to "Cormy" the cormorant. They are ugly birds in every sense of the word, I just can't see a child cuddling up with Cormy at night.
As for shooting cormorants getting near to them is one heck of a problem. Much better to target their nesting sites. That is one significant means of effecting numbers. Incidentally, 30,000 cormorants were culled in France last year and 160,000 in the States. But there again these countries have a bit more backbone, I'm sad to say. Clearly, someone is on board in these countries and recognises the damage that these birds inflict.
The RSPB is quite happy to get rid of crows where they are a threat to other birds on RSPB land. Similar situation with the Ruddy duck whereby the RSPB have virtually wiped them out. Using the same argument why can't cormorants be controlled where they are a threat to fish stocks?
Some of the posts that I have seen beggar's belief in justifying the reasons to do nothing and is utterly defeatist. Just 15 minutes with your M.P. might make a difference and at the very least counteract the "Green" do gooders who in all probability don't understand the problem.
Nor do I see the same public empathy with cormorants as in the case of badgers. Badgers do no harm, are cuddly, are referred to in children's books, "Brock" the badger; but unfortunately are reputedly linked to the spread of bovine TB. If this is the case then I can reluctantly see the need for some action, preferably vaccination. I just can't see much support for sea crows and no affectionate reference to "Cormy" the cormorant. They are ugly birds in every sense of the word, I just can't see a child cuddling up with Cormy at night.
As for shooting cormorants getting near to them is one heck of a problem. Much better to target their nesting sites. That is one significant means of effecting numbers. Incidentally, 30,000 cormorants were culled in France last year and 160,000 in the States. But there again these countries have a bit more backbone, I'm sad to say. Clearly, someone is on board in these countries and recognises the damage that these birds inflict.
The RSPB is quite happy to get rid of crows where they are a threat to other birds on RSPB land. Similar situation with the Ruddy duck whereby the RSPB have virtually wiped them out. Using the same argument why can't cormorants be controlled where they are a threat to fish stocks?
Some of the posts that I have seen beggar's belief in justifying the reasons to do nothing and is utterly defeatist. Just 15 minutes with your M.P. might make a difference and at the very least counteract the "Green" do gooders who in all probability don't understand the problem.
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Richard Hamlyn
No Longer a Member
Why do you all scrap amongst yourselves trying to figure out how to address the cormorant problem? Problem solving is not a matter of opinion...it is a matter of process. Firstly you never waste your time trying to treat the affect of a problem because it is never economically or practically effective. Only Adrian Williams, Andrew Boyne and Stuart Prescott seem to have grasped this simple fact. The way to make sure you treat the cause and not the affect of any problem is to conduct a root cause analysis. The simplest way of doing this is to ask the question “why†5 times.
Cormorants are eating our freshwater fish....why?
Because there are not enough fish in the sea to sustain them.....why?
Because the seas have been plundered by greedy commercial fishermen who rape rather than farm the seas.....why?
Usually after you have asked “why†5 times you get to the root cause. The above statements are to describe the methodology rather than to portray a factual truth. For instance the root cause of so many cormorants may be the introduction of well stocked private fisheries for the benefit of anglers that has created an artificially high food source that the cormorant population has expanded to take advantage of rather than commercial fishing in the sea. I do not know the answer and neither does anyone else who posts here because the FACTS are unknown. Root causes very often turn out to be nowhere near what popular opinion thinks they are.
SO will petitioning do any good? Probably not. So a load of birds are eating a load of fish.....the reaction of those who govern us is likely to be “listen mate I’m an MP and I’ve got the meltdown of the global financial markets to worry about, I’ll get round to looking at your fish when I get a minute...don’t hold your breathâ€.
So what should anglers actually do to help the situation? I have no answers but I may possibly have some practical advice. An angling club I have worked with in the past tried and failed repeatedly with the EA to get a license to shoot the birds. The request was always turned down, but they were given permission to “scare†the birds. Now a previous post has pointed out the down side of this namely that it merely moves the problem to your neighbour. However the club in question decided to scare the birds using a rifle. The man entrusted with the task was a poor shot however and although aiming to scare the birds he turned out more often than not to make a kill shot. The club has taken him to task over this and he has spent the last 5 years desperately practicing on an almost daily basis to improve his skills but still seems to accidentally kill more birds than he scares. They haven’t got the heart to sack him apparently.......
Richard
Cormorants are eating our freshwater fish....why?
Because there are not enough fish in the sea to sustain them.....why?
Because the seas have been plundered by greedy commercial fishermen who rape rather than farm the seas.....why?
Usually after you have asked “why†5 times you get to the root cause. The above statements are to describe the methodology rather than to portray a factual truth. For instance the root cause of so many cormorants may be the introduction of well stocked private fisheries for the benefit of anglers that has created an artificially high food source that the cormorant population has expanded to take advantage of rather than commercial fishing in the sea. I do not know the answer and neither does anyone else who posts here because the FACTS are unknown. Root causes very often turn out to be nowhere near what popular opinion thinks they are.
SO will petitioning do any good? Probably not. So a load of birds are eating a load of fish.....the reaction of those who govern us is likely to be “listen mate I’m an MP and I’ve got the meltdown of the global financial markets to worry about, I’ll get round to looking at your fish when I get a minute...don’t hold your breathâ€.
So what should anglers actually do to help the situation? I have no answers but I may possibly have some practical advice. An angling club I have worked with in the past tried and failed repeatedly with the EA to get a license to shoot the birds. The request was always turned down, but they were given permission to “scare†the birds. Now a previous post has pointed out the down side of this namely that it merely moves the problem to your neighbour. However the club in question decided to scare the birds using a rifle. The man entrusted with the task was a poor shot however and although aiming to scare the birds he turned out more often than not to make a kill shot. The club has taken him to task over this and he has spent the last 5 years desperately practicing on an almost daily basis to improve his skills but still seems to accidentally kill more birds than he scares. They haven’t got the heart to sack him apparently.......
Richard
Jim Foxall
Senior Member
The process is to talk/lobby those people who may have some influence in dealing with the problem. I don't think that many people buy into there being few fish left in the coastal waters as few trawlers operate that close to shore to affect a cormorant's dietary needs. There is no blame on cormorants for they do what comes naturally. But to all intents and purposes they are in the wrong place and their numbers are spiralling. MPs do listen, it's a large part of their job to listen to their constituents.
The facts are there are too many freshwater easy pickings and too many cormorants. I doubt that commercial fisheries are targetted by these birds because the owners would be on hand to "scare" the birds away so they move on to the next available stretch of river etc. and plunder that instead. Solution, thin cormorant numbers. I can see more sense in targetting nesting sites rather than shooting them. Goodness knows how you shoot them. My observations are that they always appear to be out of range of a shotgun.
I think, Richard, that many anglers would agree with much of what I have to say. There will always be dissenters and that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's up to each side to come up with cogent arguments.
Martin Gregory
Senior Member
I think its great that people are doing something, rather than nothing, about the cormorant issue. However, as has been pointed out in previous posts, the whole picture of why cormorants are predating our rivers is a far bigger one and that needs a correspondingly bigger response to deal with it.
I guess if more anglers joined the Angling Trust this would be a starting point, more members equals more subscriptions, more money, equals more power.
I guess if more anglers joined the Angling Trust this would be a starting point, more members equals more subscriptions, more money, equals more power.
Andrew Boyne
Senior Member
We also need to stop alienating ourselves from everyone else by calling for culs on anything that eats fish. Bordering on the dark ages of throwing pike up the bank. Trying to get public suppport for a cul on anything is next to impossible these days and puts us in a very bad light.
What do we actually want as Barbel anglers? We want clean healthy river systems with self sustaining populations of fish to catch.
What do otter lovers want? They want clean healthy river systems with self sustaining populations of fish for them to eat.
What do bird watches want? They want clean healthy river systems with self sustaining populations of fish to feed the likes of Kingfishers, Gooseanders, Herons and Ospreys.
Do you see my point yet? Why then do so many of us want to fight these other groups - we should be standing alongside them and fighting for the same thing.
What do we actually want as Barbel anglers? We want clean healthy river systems with self sustaining populations of fish to catch.
What do otter lovers want? They want clean healthy river systems with self sustaining populations of fish for them to eat.
What do bird watches want? They want clean healthy river systems with self sustaining populations of fish to feed the likes of Kingfishers, Gooseanders, Herons and Ospreys.
Do you see my point yet? Why then do so many of us want to fight these other groups - we should be standing alongside them and fighting for the same thing.
Eddie Farrell
Senior Member
well said andy,
Jeff Edisbury
Senior Member
Andrew,
The point is..............this was a post about the cormorant petition on a barbel angling forum. Clearly, there have been multiple views on the matter. What I want is for anglers to have a voice in the world we live in. MY opinion is that there are far too many cormorants and something needs to be done to protect our valuable fish stocks. Clearly you disagree with that view and I do not see your point other than there is no point. We are clearly never going to agree on that view.
There will NEVER be self sustaining fish stocks in our rivers if cormorant, otter, Eastern European poaching, water abstraction and pollution issues are NOT addressed.
NOt doing anything is NOT an option for me and others on this forum but PLEASE don't try to belittle our meagre efforts as being pointless.
Jeff
The point is..............this was a post about the cormorant petition on a barbel angling forum. Clearly, there have been multiple views on the matter. What I want is for anglers to have a voice in the world we live in. MY opinion is that there are far too many cormorants and something needs to be done to protect our valuable fish stocks. Clearly you disagree with that view and I do not see your point other than there is no point. We are clearly never going to agree on that view.
There will NEVER be self sustaining fish stocks in our rivers if cormorant, otter, Eastern European poaching, water abstraction and pollution issues are NOT addressed.
NOt doing anything is NOT an option for me and others on this forum but PLEASE don't try to belittle our meagre efforts as being pointless.
Jeff