Closed season/Spawning

[Damian Kimmins]

Craig,

I'm with you on there being no jutification behind the river closed season and very honestly think that we are just coming to the end of the last one ever.......

If that is the case Ian, this season that is about to start will be my last as a coarse angler, ever...



There seems to be absolutely no logic applied in some arguments.
'Well, I say that they should abolish the close season on rivers because they did on lakes', 'well, I say that they should abolish the close season on rivers because the Eastern Europeans are stealing our fish', 'well, I say that they should abolish the close season because the fish won't suffer'.


Everyone single one of you asking for the abolition must be fishing rivers that are full to the brim with fish?

Let's assume for minute that you're not though - what does a commercial fishery, the driving force behind the move to open lakes year round, have to do with the riverine environment?
How does someone stealing some fish from the river drive you to forget about why it is there is a close season? If you are worried about such matters then logically, policing is the answer. How about asking your local club if you can become a Bailiff so that you might help the situation?
It's clear that rivers up and down the country are in a state where populations of fish are in decline, and this is not exactly a pin the large tail on the small donkey scenario, but I'd gather you're fishing one of them. Do you really, in your right mind, believe that year round fishing will not affect that further?

 

[Colin Gordon]

I have to say, yes clearly the close season is an archaic ideal and yes it is very reminiscent to the half way house Sunday opening hours for shops, basically implemented to appease both sides of the argument.

To us anglers that are being legislated its plain to see that it just ain't working:
Upper Windrush I fish for chub and roach all winter, as do plenty of other anglers and we all catch endless brown trout full of spawn.
Upper Wey a similar scenario goes on only on that river the target species tends to be grayling.

Yet for all the captured trout, they are on both rivers still consistently having good spawning success.
And on all stillwaters I fish during the close season, with one exception which is ravaged by cormorants all through the winter.
These waters ALL have very succesful recruitment of all species.

BUT

And this is a very big but, I truly believe until the EA and NE both openly admit that there are serious problems regards fish stocks on many of our rivers.
To end the nonsense that is the close season will turn around and prove to be a real counter productive move, why?

Because IMO the two fore mentioned bodies will then use the ending of fishing seasons as the reason for poor recruitment on our rivers.

Currently they are sat in cloud Cuckoo Land telling all and sundry how well the waterways are doing; Otter numbers on the up, Great Crested Newt numbers improving, on the whole water dwelling bird numbers are at high.
The list is endless apart from fish and vole numbers, and they'll soon rectify the vole situation, I'm sure.
So that only leaves fish and I for one am not giving them any ammunition to use as a scape goat to blaming angling for the demise in fish stocks..... which is what will happen!!

Then when we've got the blame, we'll be in their sweaty palms, with no voice or provable ground to stand on.....
Rivers closed from Jan 1st to mid July and if Salmon present probably Dec 1st to July.

Me, I'll sadly just wait until there is some reasonable acceptance of the problems afoot by the powers that be cos as I said I'm not being used as a scape goat, not for bloody anyone!!

 

[Chris Jones]

Let's assume for minute that you're not though - what does a commercial fishery, the driving force behind the move to open lakes year round, have to do with the riverine environment?

Not necessarily a great deal other than the fact that they still have fish that will breed and spawn. Now this might not be the case in an out and out commercial but there are plenty of much more natural stillwaters that allow all year round fishing with, on the face of it, no ill effects. Lets face it, there's been plenty of folk on here fishing gravel pits very successfully for carp, tench and bream? Are these fish not worthy of similar protection to river fish?:confused:

How does someone stealing some fish from the river drive you to forget about why it is there is a close season?

Because the closed season means less eyes and ears on the bank. More chance of the fish stealers operating unhindered, and they know it.

If you are worried about such matters then logically, policing is the answer. How about asking your local club if you can become a Bailiff so that you might help the situation?

Agreed, but the best policing could actually mean having plenty of folks on the bank. Not that many are inclined to do that unless they can fish. Do many club bailiffs operate at all on rivers in the closed season anyway? Judging by the number of illegal anglers, on various rivers, I've seen over the years, it would appear not.

It's clear that rivers up and down the country are in a state where populations of fish are in decline, and this is not exactly a pin the large tail on the small donkey scenario, but I'd gather you're fishing one of them. Do you really, in your right mind, believe that year round fishing will not affect that further?

It might, who knows? I certainly don't. However, if the closed season isn't actually covering the spawning/immediate pre-spawning times, are we doing more damage by fishing in June/July than we would if we fished in April/May? Is there is any genuine evidence that year round angling makes any difference to successful breeding in coarse species (Sounds like a cracking thesis for a fisheries management student)? I've yet to see it but it may be out there. Just suggesting that it's logic doesn't make it true.

 

[Colin Gordon]

As for the anglers who need a close season to force them away from the river bank.... Learn self control!!

 

[Ian Crook]

Damian,

Don't shoot the messenger.

Just expressing an opinion, I honestly think that commerce and politics will see the closed season abolished in exactly the same way that commercial pressure spelled the end on stillwaters.........

 

[Craig Wood]

Hi damien
Maybe if they moved the actual dates the current closed season starts and finishes..such as finish end of may and start again mid or end of july..but then as youve rightly pointed out fish stocks are in a bad way on our rivers for various reasons..but where do you draw the line regarding close seasons because different species spawn at different times and it would be unfair to single out one species over another...for example roach are in decline in the hamps avon and i know some good work is being carried out to try and encourage spawning such as these boards they have introduced...But i dont think the current closed season dates are doing anygood regarding helping fish spawning...
regards craig..

 

[Ian Crook]

On those stillwaters, try catching a carp, roach, tench or any other fish once they get spawning on their mind, I certainly cannot..........

Rivers would be no different, it will still be the boats, canoeists, dog swimmers, cattle, horses and people swimming that will disturb spawning, not anglers........

I could understand a no access to rivers by anyone between certain dates would work but would never be implemented in a month of sundays.

It will be a pity to see you go Damian

 

[Chris Jones]

On those stillwaters, try catching a carp, roach, tench or any other fish once they get spawning on their mind, I certainly cannot..........

Agreed, and I said so on page one. There's only one thing a spawning fish is interested in, it certainly isn't feeding. The only ways to catch them would be with a big net or, if you are an utter idiot, you might be able to deliberately foul hook one.

 

[Ian Crook]

Agreed, and I said so on page one. There's only one thing a spawning fish is interested in, it certainly isn't feeding. The only ways to catch them would be with a big net or, if you are an utter idiot, you might be able to deliberately foul hook one.

Oh yes!! Oops

 

[Colin Gordon]

Originally Posted by Damian Kimmins
It's clear that rivers up and down the country are in a state where populations of fish are in decline, and this is not exactly a pin the large tail on the small donkey scenario, but I'd gather you're fishing one of them. Do you really, in your right mind, believe that year round fishing will not affect that further?


I'm in as right a mind as I ever am (no comments needed) and I don't believe for one second that ending the close season would have a detrimental impact upon my local river (Cherwell) and trust me there are very few rivers in this country that are in a worse state!

 

[Graham Elliott]

River captures are decreasing year on year over the last decade. St Patricks Stream being a perfect micro example of the Thames general decline. A river section good for as many fish in a day years ago, as now caught all season.

Silver fish are nearly totally absent from many riverine systems, with no change over the last few years.

And some want to target the few remaining resources in our rivers every day of the year without break. The resources that many hope will eventually lead to a revival. And yes, you can catch and disrupt spawning fish. They are often at their most aggressive with intruders.

Shame on the selfish ones. Go and catch the 43,000 small carp put in a pond for the last Fisho'mania leg!

Graham

 

[Ian Crook]

River captures are decreasing year on year over the last decade. St Patricks Stream being a perfect micro example of the Thames general decline. A river section good for as many fish in a day years ago, as now caught all season.

Silver fish are nearly totally absent from many riverine systems, with no change over the last few years.

And some want to target the few remaining resources in our rivers every day of the year without break. The resources that many hope will eventually lead to a revival. And yes, you can catch and disrupt spawning fish. They are often at their most aggressive with intruders.

Shame on the selfish ones. Go and catch the 43,000 small carp put in a pond for the last Fisho'mania leg!

Graham

Graham,

Do you honestly think it would make any difference??

 

[Richard Parsons]

This is a very interesting and impassioned debate....however, on balance, the most salient points seem to come down on the side of ending the close season. I, for one, usually take the time to fish the odd stillwater, fly fish or do a little DIY, so I'd miss the enforced break, However, all the arguments (so far on this thread, without meaning to be derisory) seem to lack substance....

In reality though, I can't see where the impetus for removing the close season would come from....

(edited the "can" to be "can't")

 

[Chris Jones]

Seems to be some wilful missing of points going on.

For the record, I don't want the closed season abolished. However, I'm not convinced at all that there is any point in it at all. There's certainly little logic in a two month break when coarse fish spawning of all the various species can span a good five months. That's without even thinking about brown trout, grayling, salmon and sea trout. There's also little logic in a window that no longer takes account of geographical location. Fish up north certainly spawn later than those down south. Even deeper (still)waters can mean a delay in spawning.

When I watch chub and barbel spawn well into the open season I'll continue to wonder whether the closed season serves any purpose. When I watch river pike spawn in February/March I'll wonder. I'll also never quite understand why we have quite so many perch on my local gravel pit when we sit fishing while watching them spawn in the margins. I see fly and worm anglers fishing for trout through the closed coarse season, legally, and wonder how it is that this causes no problem for coarse fish.

I'd love someone to explain what the closed season achieves as far as fish are concerned. Suggesting that it's logical that having no closed season would be bad doesn't cut the mustard. Besides, if that kind of logic is taken to its logical conclusion then fishing should be banned totally in the name of fish welfare. I rather hope that doesn't happen.

 

[David Gauntlett]

I don't wish to see the closed season abolished either, though I freely admit that most of the reasons I have for feeling that way are rather old fashioned and possibly not as valid as I have always held them to be...fact is I am a dinosaur, from an age and way of life past it's sell by date.

On the other hand, most of the reasons for getting rid of the closed season don't hold water either (excuse the pun)

For instance, people are claiming that spawning fish can not be caught...are they serious I have lost count of the numbers of carp, roach, chub etc,. etc., that I have caught that have been shedding eggs or milt all over my net/mat when I have landed them...are they not spawning fish? (And yes, I KNOW...the very fact that I have caught these spawning fish during the legal, open season makes my arguements almost as silly as yours )

Others have claimed that catching spawning fish on stillwaters has done those fish no harm. (A) How do they know that, if it is not possible to catch spawning fish ? (B) Even if you ignore issue (A), how do these people know that those spawning stillwater fish that have been caught have suffered no harm? How can they be so mysteriously certain that none of them subsequently died from being spawn bound, due to disturbed/interupted spawning? How do they know how many fish there would be in a lake if it had not been fished at that time, or how large the fish would have grown if they were undisturbed for three months each year?

I have been around for long enough to remember fishing ordinary lakes (the commercials were not around then) back when the closed season affected them as well...and it seems to me I caught more, and bigger fish back then. (Though I will admit that there may be other reasons for this percieved difference )

Joking aside, there are as many valid reasons for getting rid of the closed season as there are for keeping it...and as many silly ones mouthed by either faction as well

Some (many?) of those who wish to see the closed season end have some sort of financial angle to sway their thinking. Others just have no room for what they see as outdated moral and ethical issues on catching spawning fish (The very fact that a fixed closure can not cover the spawning of EVERY fish means that we are all a little guilty of that perhaps )

Of course if I were a cynical person I could also mention the baying mob who can not see beyond the next bend in their rod/pint of beer/jump in the sack....or whatever else it is that for them needs instant gratification at that particular moment.....but I am not, so I won't.............

The fact is, there are probably no sound, proven scientific facts to settle this, either way...we all want what we want for our own reasons. Sadly, at the end of the day it won't be what I or any other ordinary joe wants that decides this anyway... it will be money that is the deciding factor. Always has been, always will be...that's life.

But...for all of that...when the inevitable does occur, I for one will be deeply saddened...however silly, old fashioned or vaguely illogical that makes me

Cheers, Dave.

 

[David Hall]

from what i've seen over the past 10 years, closed season on rivers,what closed season.

 

[David Hall]

i've always said it shouldn't be on every river, the controlling club can start the season when they want and finish it when they want.

 

[Chris Jones]

As many of the points seem to be in response to points I've made I'll try to answer. I freely admit that I don't have any absolute answers. However, the accusations of irresponsibility and selfishness (not from you, David G) are a bit much, especially when the protagonists that are firmly on the impassioned "keep it" side of the fence have no more evidence or absolute answers than anyone else.

For instance, people are claiming that spawning fish can not be caught...are they serious I have lost count of the numbers of carp, roach, chub etc,. etc., that I have caught that have been shedding eggs or milt all over my net/mat when I have landed them...are they not spawning fish? (And yes, I KNOW...the very fact that I have caught these spawning fish during the legal, open season makes my arguements almost as silly as yours )

Yes, still deadly serious. You can't catch a spawning fish with a baited hook. What you are talking about are fish that are ready/preparing to spawn. I'd suggest that many of us will be catching some fish like this in the very near future. I'd still maintain that fish actually in all the thrashing glory of spawning are uncatchable.

Others have claimed that catching spawning fish on stillwaters has done those fish no harm. (A) How do they know that, if it is not possible to catch spawning fish ? (B) Even if you ignore issue (A), how do these people know that those spawning stillwater fish that have been caught have suffered no harm? How can they be so mysteriously certain that none of them subsequently died from being spawn bound, due to disturbed/interupted spawning? How do they know how many fish there would be in a lake if it had not been fished at that time, or how large the fish would have grown if they were undisturbed for three months each year?

I have never caught a fish in the act of spawning. I have been fishing on rivers and stillwaters and watched various species (carp, barbel, chub, pike and perch in recent years) spawn over the years. As an aside, only the perch were actually witnessed spawning in the "closed" season.
It's these very perch on this particular water that make me wonder if there's any negative effect of fishing when they spawn. There's millions of them, they are by far and away the most prominent species and seem to have no problem with breeding recruitment. I can't say that if fishing hadn't been allowed there would be more or bigger perch. They are the most numerous and biggest perch for miles around as it is.

I've not yet seen any evidence put forward to support the assertion that fishing during spawning time will inevitably effect recruitment. The suggestions that "it's obvious" or "it's logical" could be true but they aren't valid arguments. I'm also still puzzled that some seem to think that abolishing the river closed season would be bad for fish welfare yet they'll happily fish a stillwater. What makes these stillwater fish impervious to the negative effects that are seemingly so awful for river fish? :confused:

I have been around for long enough to remember fishing ordinary lakes (the commercials were not around then) back when the closed season affected them as well...and it seems to me I caught more, and bigger fish back then. (Though I will admit that there may be other reasons for this percieved difference )

I really don't see it with regards to bigger fish. Look at the angling press and records. For all the bitching and whining about various aspects of angling that are beyond our control, fish seem to have got bigger over the years, records are still falling, even on those stillwaters that now allow year round fishing. More fish could well be more likely, I suspect that most folk would (rightly) claim to have caught more fish way back when.

 

[Craig Wood]

Some very interesting points have been made by everyone...I think the point regarding scrapping the closed season and allowing various clubs and fisherie owners to decide if they want to allow fishing outside current closed season laws is a very valid one..Certain rivers have salmon and sea trout seasons which to be fair should be kept as they are and not include coarse anglers whilst the game season is in place but where no game fisherman fish i cant see the problem allowing coarse anglers to fish...But anyway the rivers are open from midnight and i hope everyone has a very enjoyable and perhaps rewarding time..