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Britain's biggest barbel...

Mark Anderson said:
Hi men ,

Jason , basing barbel populations done on a charity event where people are guided , and research swims is very very flawed , and in fact would get you a severve talking to on the banks of a few rivers i used to fish . One such river , has just beaten a realy good angler , who has given up on it with a lack ( even compared to only a few seasons ago ) barbel, and a increase of crays .

Hatter
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Mark, I think that your's and Sue's type of fishing as been hit hard over the the last 15 years.....personally though I can't bring sentiment into my fishing nowadays. As you know it's not nice
 
Hi men,

We have in fact given up barbel fishing , the future for me is as many trips to France as I can afford , which ain't enough . Going through the motions on the canal locally the other eve , where Iv been struggling in a spot as far from the car as you can get , in a noted carp holding area , we sat with the faint wiff of a ottered small common in the bushes . Between us and the car floated a low double common , ottered . The canal is obviously as exposed to otters as the river that runs close to it , not a lot to be said really , well other than I'm moving stretches a fair few mile .

Regarding where and how we fished , look at the Windrush reports , Thame , Evenlode , Cherwell , upper Thames , Teme , once Gt Ouse ( local joke ) and a bit of a decline in the other bits we hoped would suit us , hardly a healthy population . Yes there are people catching fish , but if it was just catching that we liked that would be fine , but in our case its more than that . Its watching them , stalking , roving , being on bits nobody could be bothered with , making swims , tieing ourselves to trees , much much more than catching . Yes we have irons in the fire , if we want to travel a bit , but our days have gone , I just hope that when my grandson wants to go he dont think that we let him down , and things have improved .

Hatter
 
The moment The EA gave precedence to Predators that threaten Coarse fishing, was the moment it finally sunk in just how bad things have become.
Its true silverfish populations do seem to be replacing the Barbel that have gone and that will reflect what fishing I do from now on when I do fish my local Rivers..
I have started to go Sea Fishing for a while now and guess what.???..The Sea anglers aint to happy about disappearing fish stocks also and in particular the new regulation's regarding fish quotas and size for Bass..
The AT have given new guide lines to help protect stocks..

One problem though, the Bass shoals are getting hammered before they even reach British Waters, this is no big secret..

Again an example of the bleeding obvious being ignored and organisations dancing around without any power to deal with the obvious..

Jason,
Pass on my regards to Colin.
 
Julian Griffiths said:
I didn't join Twyford this season mainly for the fact and like most other rivers now, it's had its day, with just a very small head of known fish to keep going at trying to justify being happy that it's pulled the scales down a further ounce or two no longer appeals to me!

The news letter came through celebrating the fact they've introduced something like 40 Barbel to the Loddon and being really cheerful about it....those blinking fish if they survive the 1st few weeks of cormorant attentions will be out of that river and into the Thames in short order.
Proper habitat management should be the number one priority to any well run club, to be fair Twyford have done some, but fall short because everyone thinks a bucket full of barbel is going to bring back the golden days lol.

I too, now feel like most of the fish we catch are 'stockies' it's laughable and I told the secretary that, and said that's was the main reason I'm moving on, there's nothing worse in going after the same few fish year in year out. It certainly does not float my boat, that's why I've joined new clubs for a season or two then move on....as lot of these clubs have that commercial stocking policy feel to it now, which will eventually see these clubs fall by the way side.
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You seem to be quite misguided or misinformed Julian!!

The recent stocking of Barbel into the Loddon was done in collaboration with all clubs and Dinton Pastures and done as a bit of an experiment as much as anything. All the fish stocked were of a size that they should not be troubled by the odd cormorant which attempts to navigate the Loddon streamers rather than plunder shallow well stocked lakes.

This is the only stocking the club has ever done as far as I'm aware, the EA did some huge stockings in the early 90s, hence the bonanza of early 2000s. We do not have any program to put further stock into the Loddon although the EA are always willing to look at this on the back of habitat improvement work, something a few of us clubs are continuing with.

I am sure Mr. Jeffery is grateful of your feedback, fortunately none of the other 19 or so percent of members who did not renew feel as you do, in fact they, together with the 81 or so percent which renewed this year are EXTREMELY complimentary of the way the club is managed and the sterling work carried out in fishery management, habitat improvement and general access. You will be missed as is every member who for whatever reason does not renew but we will continue in the direction we are to secure the best possible general fishing, not single species Barbel, we can for the good of all members.
 
Graham Elliott said:
Jason. I refer you to the Barbel population survey carried out on BFW. Goodbye.
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Graham, not wishing to get into an argument but you keep quoting this.

For reference there has never been a Barbel population survey carried out on BFW, there has simply been a collection of opinion based on catch reports by those who wished to respond.

There is absolutely no science behind it!!
 
Crooky.

Surveys are always based on input from those that wish to respond.

If you want to be pedantic.

Its a survey of Bfw members perceptions of their barbel catch rates over recent years.

The results are indicative of a marked and significant decline in barbel numbers countrywide.


Of course none of them have been eaten by otters, cormorants etc (add your choice)
Affected by water quality
Had eggs eaten by crayfish
Had health problems caused by diet

They have just become very very clever.
 
Graham Elliott said:
Crooky.

Surveys are always based on input from those that wish to respond.

If you want to be pedantic.

Its a survey of Bfw members perceptions of their barbel catch rates over recent years.

The results are indicative of a marked and significant decline in barbel numbers countrywide.


Of course none of them have been eaten by otters, cormorants etc (add your choice)
Affected by water quality
Had eggs eaten by crayfish
Had health problems caused by diet

They have just become very very clever.
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Sorry Graham,

Wasn't intending to be pedantic for the same of pedantry!

It is based on catch rates without any science, you have no idea of the skill level of respondents, frequency of fishing, hours per fish, daytime, nighttime, etc, I.e. not at all scientific or even a survey of a controlled group.

Therefore it is no more than an opinion survey and cannot be quoted as a benchmark of fact

You would be better quoting EA electrofishing surveys which are carried on controlled stretches at the same time each year. To see trends rising or falling you need to look over a five year minimum period
 
Sorry Crooky

Electrofishing surveys are only indicative. There are so many variables dependent on water quantity, areas checked, efficiency of operators etc etc.

However the survey of BFW anglers catch rates over the past 5 years was completed by the varied group you mentioned and the results would be very indicative of the mean outcomes.

The mention you make of skill levels/time of fishing/frequency etc. is a simple baseless red herring that gets watered down by the respondent numbers. They are in the main barbel anglers.

Of course it's not a statement of fact. Of course it's not scientific. However it reflects the real world of barbel population changes experienced by real people that fish for them and I trust their perceptions more than any conducted survey from parties who have an interest in distorting facts.

What is a fact is that of the over 300 barbel anglers asked the question, and given options to choose from, by vast the majority showed clearly the problems regarding barbel population levels in our rivers.

Where we have a problem is in people who can't see beyond self interest. Be that in bait making, tackle shops, club management, etc.

Crooky. Do yourself a favour. State on here if you the believe as you seem to, that no barbel population decline has happened in southern rivers over the past 5-10 years.

Graham
 
As an example of how anglers regard fishing o the Kennet, a river that IMO has suffered very badly from a decline in Barbel. A chap posted he walked several miles of the Kennet at the weekend including the once prolific Benyons waters, just 3 cars across it all.
About 3 years ago a large percentage of Barbel started being caught with chunks missing from their tales, 1 angler recorded 60% of the fish he caught had the damage. Some friends and I had perhaps a dozen double figure Barbel between Jan and the end of that season, EVERY fish had chunks missing, The following season we barely caught any fish. We didnt all suddenly become bad anglers in the close season, the fish didnt all take a decision not to eat the baits we had been using, They were gone. If on rivers like the BA , nice and clear you used to be able to spot literally hundreds of Barbel and now its hard to spot 1 THEY HAVE GONE. Coincidentally there was a massive increase in Otter sightings in each case. Its not science its common sense.
 
Graham Elliott said:
Sorry Crooky

Electrofishing surveys are only indicative. There are so many variables dependent on water quantity, areas checked, efficiency of operators etc etc.

However the survey of BFW anglers catch rates over the past 5 years was completed by the varied group you mentioned and the results would be very indicative of the mean outcomes.

The mention you make of skill levels/time of fishing/frequency etc. is a simple baseless red herring that gets watered down by the respondent numbers. They are in the main barbel anglers.

Of course it's not a statement of fact. Of course it's not scientific. However it reflects the real world of barbel population changes experienced by real people that fish for them and I trust their perceptions more than any conducted survey from parties who have an interest in distorting facts.

What is a fact is that of the over 300 barbel anglers asked the question, and given options to choose from, by vast the majority showed clearly the problems regarding barbel population levels in our rivers.

Where we have a problem is in people who can't see beyond self interest. Be that in bait making, tackle shops, club management, etc.

Crooky. Do yourself a favour. State on here if you the believe as you seem to, that no barbel population decline has happened in southern rivers over the past 5-10 years.

Graham
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I believe there has been a decline in catch rates, I believe there have been poor recruitment years, I believe fish which were stocked in the 90s will be approaching the end of their natural life. Has there been a marked decline in numbers, I don't know, have not seen any evidence.

As I also fish for Carp I can draw a comparison, in the 80s I could go to a Carp water with very simple float and sweet corn and catch loads of Carp, now I have to try very much harder even though the same number of fish are still there. If I go to certain top pike waters I have to try much harder than I did 10 years ago, tench waters, same again!!! You know yourself how difficult specimen roach are to catch.
Do you see where this is going??

You seem to be absolutely convinced that Barbel are the only fish out there which do not react to Angling pressure!!!

Bored now, we could continue to have this argument for the next ten years and I doubt either would change their view so its pointless......

Oh, no, you have changed your view, 6 years ago you were telling us they were all wiped out in the 2007 floods!! ;)
 
Crooky. Incorrect and you know it. I said those floods at spawning time were a contributary factor to lower numbers.

Look back at anglers comments on that survey. You are ignoring the obvious and rash statements like that underline it.

See Richies comment above, mirrored time and time again by others.

So. Ignoring the super intelligent fish (that strangely seem to be smaller fish) I would guess that levels are similar to this compared with 10 years ago.



Kennets 15 %
Loddon 20%
St. Pats 15%
Thames 15%

On rivers fished up to a few years ago.

Teme 10%
Severn 20%
Bristol Avon 10%

You need to get out and talk to barbel anglers.
 
Robert Richbell said:
As an example of how anglers regard fishing o the Kennet, a river that IMO has suffered very badly from a decline in Barbel. A chap posted he walked several miles of the Kennet at the weekend including the once prolific Benyons waters, just 3 cars across it all.
About 3 years ago a large percentage of Barbel started being caught with chunks missing from their tales, 1 angler recorded 60% of the fish he caught had the damage. Some friends and I had perhaps a dozen double figure Barbel between Jan and the end of that season, EVERY fish had chunks missing, The following season we barely caught any fish. We didnt all suddenly become bad anglers in the close season, the fish didnt all take a decision not to eat the baits we had been using, They were gone. If on rivers like the BA , nice and clear you used to be able to spot literally hundreds of Barbel and now its hard to spot 1 THEY HAVE GONE. Coincidentally there was a massive increase in Otter sightings in each case. Its not science its common sense.
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So, guessing you have around a dozen photos of double figure Barbel with chunks missing from their tales, caught from the Kennet to share?
 
Graham Elliott said:
Crooky. Incorrect and you know it. I said those floods at spawning time were a contributary factor to lower numbers.

Look back at anglers comments on that survey. You are ignoring the obvious and rash statements like that underline it.

See Richies comment above, mirrored time and time again by others.

So. Ignoring the super intelligent fish (that strangely seem to be smaller fish) I would guess that levels are similar to this compared with 10 years ago.



Kennets 15 %
Loddon 20%
St. Pats 15%
Thames 15%

On rivers fished up to a few years ago.

Teme 10%
Severn 20%
Bristol Avon 10%

You need to get out and talk to barbel anglers.
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Are you saying these are percentages remaining or reduced by?
 
Crooky

I said

I would guess that levels are similar to this compared with 10 years ago.



Kennets 15 %
Loddon 20%
St. Pats 15%
Thames 15%

Should be clear.
 
2 main catchments with an ongoing decline in recruitment/populations....great Ouse and Thames

Now,it's not rocket science to see why they are struggling with sustaining a barbel population....just not suitable. The Thames in oxford stand still at the moment and match anglers are winning with bleak.
 
In an angling world where consistent and methodical scientific data is at best patchy, then the collective experience of anglers is often, it seems to me, the most powerful and meaningful insight we have. Naturally it will contain flaws and naturally, reaching some overarching conclusion is broadly impossible because of the dynamic nature of our diverse rivers. But there can be some shared DNA across certain rivers that can perhaps point us in a certain direction. The experience of anglers might help to validate work that is being carried out, or could help inform a project that should be undertaken.

I can only speak for the Kennet and only based on my own experiences and those of people I speak to regularly and who have fished it for a considerable period of time (15 years plus). I don't think any scientific study is required to help support something that the majority of Kennet anglers observe-a general decline in barbel stocks. Of course the real question is why. The otters are the headline grabbers and without a shadow of doubt, on a stretch I and a few others know well, there has been a sharp decline in the number of doubles present. That said, these fish are of course old and perhaps close to a natural end to their lives which gets us back to the issue of recruitment. And that's where it gets difficult and where more science is required. How big an impact do Crayfish have? I happen to think a great deal, but I have no science to back that up-I wish someone would investigate it though!

I think discounting the collective experience of anglers would be erroneous but equally, it can not, by itself, represent the entire picture. What we seem to be incapable of is pulling all the various threads together in a cohesive manner that offers a valid and robust platform for actual stuff to be done or representations to be made.
 
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