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Base Mix? One For Bait Buffs...

John Cook

Senior Member
Good Afternoon All,

I have always rolled my own boilies and paste over the years i am now looking for a new base mix and attractor package for the coming season, i have always done better on a fishmeal type base mix with some fishy type liquid extracts however for the second part of last season i broke from the norm and tried john bakers taste 4 barbel base mix plus the taste liquid food and milky flavour, not cheap smelt nice but im afraid that it didnt work for me:mad: maybe should have went for his bio shellfish? i also know that some of you guys are rolling savoury type mixes or the milk proteins, i would like to hear your thoughts and recomendations, pm if you prefer..:)
 
Hi John,
I can see you standing on the edge of a precipice John, and you're going to jump aren't you :eek:

You have 2 options essentialy - a food bait or attractor type bait.

The type of bait that's best to use i think much depends on your style of fishing, i.e. are you moving a lot from stretch to stretch, or mostly fishing one ?
If you move from stretch to stretch or even different rivers, you'll never be giving the Barbel enough time to recognise your particular bait, so the attractor route would probably benefit you most, even so a degree of nutritional signal to your bait is essential, but i'm sure overly powerful attractors in the form of flavourings, will work against you.

In this case, and i know it's not the answer you were looking for, i would go with meat, which has a nutritional signal any fish that swims will recognise.
Your options of flavouring are absolutly endlesss, but i would still keep it fairly low, you can soak it in fish oils, flavour it with spicey / savoury flavours or both, and allow the oils to pull the flavour into the meat, and by doing that will keep for ages in a cold fridge, and allow the meat to marinate, and draw the flavouring deep into the meat.
The only problem is it's not particularly selective, especially with Chub, and Bream, they love it too !

However if you are visting only one venue, then a food bait is the way to go in my opinion.
That doesn't necsesarily mean an HNV bait, but a fair degree of protein within the bait is a desirable thing.
So my recomendation of a proprietry base mix would be Live system by CC Moore - here..
CC Moore: Live System Base Mix - Baits from CC Moore

One of the good things about CC Moore is that they do broadly tell you what is in the mix, unlike many other companies.

I don't use this mix, mine is a custom made mix, but is not too dissimilar.
It will be the change from fishmeal that you are looking for, has a good nutritional content, and judgeing by the ingredients a respectable protein content.
There is not a bait in existance that will keep Chub and Bream away if they are present, but some will attract them far more than others, such as meat or fishmeal based baits, whereas Barbel seem very happy to feed on good nutritional value mixes that don't have them.

Most importantly in my opinion this mix ( and i have smelt it ) has no massively identifying smell other than a blandish yeasty smell that is described in the link i gave you, i think the creamy undertone that's described is from an ingredient called Lamlac, which is a calf rearer milk powder, used often to hand rear orphaned animals, it's similar to baby milk, but much richer in taste and smell.
I would guess wheatgerm is also included in the mix, which is also a highly digestible food product.
So on the face of it - as i say i don't use it so i can't say from experience - it ticks all the boxes for a good all year round bait, being of a good nutritional value and, made up from very digestible ingredients.

All that though is not the only the value of this mix, as i said it has a bland smell, which will allow to to include other ingredients to add a custom flavour, which you can, change slightly or dramatically if you wish, by putting in and taking out of addtives.
These i would include as standard to your mix....
Robin Red....
you can leave it out on occasion if you wish, which will dramaticly change the flavour profile, but even in high quantity has not got such an overpowering smell that could instantly put fish off, however in say a 3 egg mix i would stick to 1 - 3 level teaspoons, and varying that from time to time is enough to tweak the flavouring of your bait, to prevent the fish becoming over cautious.

Ground Black Pepper, this is another i would usually always include ( Telling all my bloody secrets here ! :eek: ) Vary the amounts from time to time, a healthy shaking is what i usually put in, it needn't be too accurate.

All manner of Herbs and spices such as from the Schwartz range or similar, supermarkets do their own brands as well.
Again you needent be too accurate, but these can deliver a fairly powerful smell to your bait, so just don't overdo it.
You can mix and match, any of these additives, and anything else you can think of along those lines, Curry powders or pastes etc.

As far as flavourings go, your bait should end with a fairly subtle smell, and though your nose may be able to detect that spicey or savoury note, it should never be so powerful that you can easily identify any one ingredient.

I've used the same basic bait mix for over 6 years now, just by every now and again making very small changes to the flavourings, regularly but never dramatically, unless visiting a new venue or one i've not fished for some time.

Steer clear of those powerful liquids is my advice, or use them very very sparingly, that goes for even the 'food types' to be of any value as a food you'd need to put a lot in, and it wont be long before it will blow, though it may be of some use to add a tiny amount to give a very subtle signal to your bait, but if you can smell it you've put too much in.

I'm absolutly certain you'll catch on that mix, and the variable flavourings i've given you John.
If you're after big ones, you know my approach John, very very little and as often as you can get it in ;) and the longer before you fish the better.

Then it's down to plain old watercraft mate ! Find 'em or more importantly let them find you, and don't spook 'em :D If they're there they'll come ;) If they're not you're going to blank no matter what, like i did this winter LOL ! :(

Ian.
 
Nice one Ian, another great post, with truly valuable advice....I don't think John will go far wrong with that.

John, all I will add is that your original thoughts about John Bakers Bio Shellfish are not a million miles out either, if you want a fishy bait. Team that with a low level of his Plum, combined with similarly low levels of either Butt-ringer or Milky 1 flavours and that's a very effective bait for carp....can't see barbel turning their noses up either.

Cheers, Dave.
 
Hi Ian and David,

Ian i know of the live system though have never had a smell of the base mix, i know that a lot of carp anglers do very well on it in the colder water temps...A lot to take in there Ian and have a think about, i am definately looking for a long term food bait as i shall be sitting it out on just a couple of venues..

David,
I have all of the JB liquids that you have mentioned that milky 1 smells divine, i also have the spectrum liquids and that new ASM flavour,
 
Mr. Hall,

Dave are you getting into rolling your own again?
 
Mr. Hall,

Dave are you getting into rolling your own again?

No mate, I got into WAY too much trouble with 'er indoors over the years, so gave up in the end. Still got a Gardner rolling table in the garage (15 mm I think) and a few other bits and bobs, kept for sentimental reasons :D

PS....Sorry John, I just realised you were talking to Dave Hall (what am I like?)

Cheers, Dave
 
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Good carp baits don't always make good barbel baits, i used to catch a lot of carp with Cream Cajousers, never caught a single barbel with them nor the Esterberry either.

There is a whole world of base mixes and additives out there for you too play with Jon, my advise too you would be to find one (Source or Trigga Ice are worth a look), add your own very subtle label too it and stick with it.

Sticking with the bait is the hardest thing i find, too many times i have abandoned a bait and not given it enough time. I have been know to try it in a banker swim too see if it "works" and it usually does but then most baits will in a banker simply because the fish are there and are always there, perhaps why it is called a banker swim:D

Give the guy's at CC Moores a call, they can be very helpful as can the people at Yateley Angling, they will help you along.
 
Loads of barbel have come out on Cream Cajouser and esterberry on the Bristol Avon but it’s not just about the flavour the base mix is very important to.
Andy
 
No mate, I got into WAY too much trouble with 'er indoors over the years, so gave up in the end. Still got a Gardner rolling table in the garage (15 mm I think) and a few other bits and bobs, kept for sentimental reasons :D

PS....Sorry John, I just realised you were talking to Dave Hall (what am I like?)

Cheers, Dave
come on Dave, cheer the missis up and get that monster crab and fishmeal going...lol
:D
 
Yes Andy the base mix needs to be of a good food sauce for it to be a good long term bait, as Ian has said high artificial flavours are a no no.....Not so sure about the liquid foods or extracts though there are some bait buffs who say that you cant over do them? JB always says to keep them low...
 
i was always taught to keep them low back 25 years ago by a well known carp angler.
 
Yes Andy the base mix needs to be of a good food sauce for it to be a good long term bait, as Ian has said high artificial flavours are a no no.....Not so sure about the liquid foods or extracts though there are some bait buffs who say that you cant over do them? JB always says to keep them low...

I regard the base mix as my bait John, all flavourings in whatever form are only labels, this is purely for recognition, however the base mix itself will have it's own inherent label, which the Barbel will easily recognise if applied to a stretch regularly, therein lies the problem, and is why i include a flavouring to my bait as it give me vscope to change, because eventually barbel will not only recognise it, but those caught on it will - especially when caught more than once may, and almost certainly will in some cases associate the taste with danger.
I worry that other Barbel in the vicinity seeing one of these spook off the bait, will take their cue and spook as well, and is the reason why i add a flavour, so that periodically i can change that label slightly.

I can't say for sure what a Barbels natural food will taste like, but i'm certain that the strength of the flavour of snails shrimp etc, will be nothing like as powerful as the various flavourings and liquid foods that are sold to add to base mixes.
Both the chemical based flavourings and the natural, but concentrated liquid foods, have very high flavour levels, which apart from being un natural to a Barbel ( as are all of our flavourings ) are far in excess of what they would experience in natural food they eat.
Regarding the liquid foods though from natural ingredients, in order to deliver the Barbel, any meaningful nutrition, would have to be included at a level which would be instantly recognisable, and i know for certain even repellant if included at a high enough level.
So added to a base mix at a level which would not likley provoke any caution, would only deliver a very negligable amount of nutrition, but may be useful in very low levels as another label to the bait, but i would say that's where it's usefulness ends.
It's my belief that all, and any bait will blow if Barbel are continually caught on the same time after time, this is really only relavant if you are fishing a venue on a regular basis, where recaptures are inevitable.
It's also true i think that some will blow sooner than others, but much also depends on how much is being put in, and more importantly how often they are caught on it.
If i were using their natural food as bait, i'm sure when caught time after time on it though it may take a long time eventually even their natural food would blow, thats a very extreme example to give though, but it makes my point.

EDIT..... i'll also add that, how often have anglers changed from a really good bait when all the time it was being recognised not by taste but by shape ;)

There are many things with a bait that will turn recognition into caution, the shape, ( little round thing all over the river bed etc, ) the texture, the colour, etc, these things i change slightly over time, for the same reason as i change the flavour label.
The one thing that doesn't change are the ingredients of my base mix, only from the point of view my experimenting is done ! i honestly believe i can't take it any further, there must be hundreds of combinations that are equally as good as mine, possibly better even, but i'm not going to spend any more time looking, by the time i find something as good or better which i doubt, i would have cost myself many a good fish on the bank.

It was a long time ago John, that i realised, that as a bait started to loose it's effectiveness, there was no need to change the bait entirely, just a little change was all that was needed to see it perform again, and these days i make sure i never reach that point.

I have something now that years back i never had - total and absolute confidence in my bait, if i blank, then it's something i'm doing wrong, and usually it's being in totally the wrong place.

Find a good base mix John, once you know you have it stick to it come hell or high water, just make sure that nothing in it is so identifiable by massively tracing through in the smell, then just add your label to it which is NOT THE BAIT, merely a recognition aid which you tweak from time to time, in order that the label is not recognised to the point it becomes a danger signal.

Of course if you are visiting a new venue as a one off or at least only infrequently, you can up your flavour levels as long as you don't go to excess, and actually make it repellant thats fine.

Be very careful with those liquid foods John ;)

Ian.
 
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Good post Ian some very wise words there some that i am aware of and some not, yes confidence that is the thing isnt it? Do you think that some of these confectionery/ milk protein type base mixes can hold there own or work fished alonside the fishmeal boilies and the loads of pellets that get thrown into our small rivers?
 
Confidence is everything John, not just with baits, but with your methods in general, because there comes a point when experimenting can go too far, having said that every now and again you, or somebody else comes up with something new that needs a look at or you could be missing out by ignoring it.
You should always keep an open mind, and give something new a fair go, yes bait if an angler is still looking for that something special, but more frequently new methods, that can absolutly turn your fishing around, that can be bait application as well, or some method of presentation.
But you know what i mean by endless experimentation, when you are changing whatever it is you are doing so often, that you are not giving that method / bait / presentation a really fair go, and the really sad thing about that is, bypassing something that could be a blinder just because you blanked a few times, the result is you ( not you ) have no confidence in anything, resulting in you continually messing with baits, rigs, for that matter even bouncing all over the place looking for that blinder of a water !

As far as the confectionary / milk etc, type baits, there is always advantage i think to using something different from the 'going' bait everyone else is using, but if your bait is individual enough, you know with absolute certainty that no one else is using the same or even similar in most cases, by including additives to your bait, even if others are using ingredients which you also have in your mix, will not see your baits create caution because they are so similar to others.
That i believe is a problem with fishmeals or fishmeal pellets etc, broadly speaking the can be very similar, and the fish start to get very spooky about anything that smells of a fishmeal.
Though there is some mileage in the going bait, where enough of it going in, can reduce the caution of the fish, just because they eat far more of it than they are ever caught on, but in my experience where you arrive on a venue, where, anglers think they are doing ok, you then introduce something new, very palatible, and nutritious, and it doesn't take long before your results are far exceeding others catches.

So yes i think they'll wortk alongside the others providing you are equalling if not exceeding the quality of the going bait, just the different offering will lilley see a few on the bank for you, once the bait is established - and you keep it secret ;) should outscore them.

Ian.
 
Thank You Ian...Your The Daddy...:)
 
When adding a flavour Ian what sort of quantities are you using per egg?

I mix mine up a little bit varying from 2-6 drops per egg but i have in the past used as little as two drops in a six egg mix for a very subtle signal.

Do you ever change your bait to suit the weather conditions/temperatures?
 
When adding a flavour Ian what sort of quantities are you using per egg?

I mix mine up a little bit varying from 2-6 drops per egg but i have in the past used as little as two drops in a six egg mix for a very subtle signal.

Do you ever change your bait to suit the weather conditions/temperatures?

Well if you are talking liquids Tom, the only liquids i use are essential Oils, which is what i presume you're talking about here, and i'd go along with the range of drops to an egg 6 being absolute maximum.
But it also depends on the oil itself, i once tried Peppermint :eek::eek::eek:

I think i tried 3 drops per egg, in a 3 egg mix, which lasts me for a weekends fishing.... i dumped the whole lot in the bin ! it was so powerful.

I went with 2 drops to the 3 egg mix which i could still smell once the mix had been boiled, mind you i only boil for 20 sconds anyway, but still !!

I did catch on it, but the power of it put me off it, - i still have the bottle virtually full apart from what i used if you fancy it ? :D

As far as changing my bait, for winter no i don't, apart from using almost exclusivly the mix as a paste for freebies, as opposed to skinned bait.
and also i am a little more conservative with the amount usually about 1/2 doz thumbnail sized pieces, plus my hookbait, if i catch i put in 2 or 3 more.

Ian.
 
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