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Are any small river barbel populations thriving?

Jason Bean said:
I want my mix to be...

30% me
30% sensas river
30% sensas gros gardons

then laced with casters and chopped worms and balled in off Donnington bridge in to the Thames...roach and bream can have one last feast from me.

I thought some of you older guys could be made into boilies, probably turn out a bit tuff and sour though😀

edit...just realised that only adds up to 90%...we'll chuck a bit of molehill in to get me to the bottom!
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Hi men,

Jason , as a boilie I'd think I'd be a spicy flavour , with a rough texture , but not tough all the way through .


But after the ending of the fishing program on BBC2 that a lot of people watched featuring this track , it will be played as the only music at my BBQ 😛

Hatter
 
Lawrence Breakspear said:
Jason, the thing is you can not not do anything on the basis that the odds may be stacked against you, about 4 years ago I was informed that Powick weir on the river Teme was going to be removed, we all knew this would be disastrous for the river and its fish and environment. I was personally condemned, ridiculed, accused and told it would be taken away, one organisation wanted a river of deeper pools,connected by riffles and shallows, a river of shad, bullheads, minnows and chublets ......we took on the EA, the Severn Rivers Trust, the Angling Trust and the Canals and river Trust, you know what? The weir is still there, with a fish pass, we won, the point I am making is that the Angling fraternity are always being told we will fail, we are easily divided, we are told what to do, we are forever being told the rivers are in a poor state, then we are told the rivers have never been so good, all I know is that barbel numbers are in decline on every river I know and myself and few others will try our best to reverse this and make those that are charged with our well being are held to account.

Will we fail, maybe we will, but somebody as to try and unify anglers to protect the future of river fishing, with every carp water that is fenced means more otters on the river, we as river anglers must be able to protect our patch, do we really want to leave a legacy of no barbel or at best a few barbel to future river anglers. Thanks for your input Jason.
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I think you need someone with a lot of money to back you guys. to challenge the protection that otters have and ultimately cull them is a mammoth task beyond anything you think it is. You would be taking on people and organisations that have everything on there side, they would have professional's queuing up to put you down as clowns who know nothing.

You would need to make it into an economic case, where you show business's are failing due to the drop in angling tourism. local EA fisheries would have to hand over all there data of these rivers going back years showing the high numbers off barbel and then the drop off as otters arrive. the complexity of biomass in rivers would be considered, are barbel being replaced by other species, the overall health of the rivers and the capability for them to spawn successfully...you would need to hire top fisheries scientists to prove you case in data going back years. the only evidence you have is joe bloggs see this and said that and here's the picture of a dead fish.

Could you get all the clubs in the regions to back you and cough up some money, do they see things the way you do?

How long as PAG been going now and as there been any movement on otters and what is there plan?

I wish you luck Loz and if you succeed in reducing otter numbers I will be amazed, but then will the barbel numbers return?
 
Jason Bean said:
I think you need someone with a lot of money to back you guys. to challenge the protection that otters have and ultimately cull them is a mammoth task beyond anything you think it is. You would be taking on people and organisations that have everything on there side, they would have professional's queuing up to put you down as clowns who know nothing.

You would need to make it into an economic case, where you show business's are failing due to the drop in angling tourism. local EA fisheries would have to hand over all there data of these rivers going back years showing the high numbers off barbel and then the drop off as otters arrive. the complexity of biomass in rivers would be considered, are barbel being replaced by other species, the overall health of the rivers and the capability for them to spawn successfully...you would need to hire top fisheries scientists to prove you case in data going back years. the only evidence you have is joe bloggs see this and said that and here's the picture of a dead fish.

Could you get all the clubs in the regions to back you and cough up some money, do they see things the way you do?

How long as PAG been going now and as there been any movement on otters and what is there plan?

I wish you luck Loz and if you succeed in reducing otter numbers I will be amazed, but then will the barbel numbers return?
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I don't know Jason, but I DO know that apathy won't 'win the day'. "Better to have tried and failed ...."
 
Jason Bean said:
I think you need someone with a lot of money to back you guys. to challenge the protection that otters have and ultimately cull them is a mammoth task beyond anything you think it is. You would be taking on people and organisations that have everything on there side, they would have professional's queuing up to put you down as clowns who know nothing.

You would need to make it into an economic case, where you show business's are failing due to the drop in angling tourism. local EA fisheries would have to hand over all there data of these rivers going back years showing the high numbers off barbel and then the drop off as otters arrive. the complexity of biomass in rivers would be considered, are barbel being replaced by other species, the overall health of the rivers and the capability for them to spawn successfully...you would need to hire top fisheries scientists to prove you case in data going back years. the only evidence you have is joe bloggs see this and said that and here's the picture of a dead fish.

Could you get all the clubs in the regions to back you and cough up some money, do they see things the way you do?

How long as PAG been going now and as there been any movement on otters and what is there plan?

I wish you luck Loz and if you succeed in reducing otter numbers I will be amazed, but then will the barbel numbers return?
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The PAG launched the Big picture 2 document in May 2019, it has been presented to the Government, the Barbel Society contributed to this (you can download this from the PAG web site), the PAG do not just focus on Otters, they cover everything from Signal Crayfish, Gooseanders, Cormorants to Otters, the Barbel society through any of its coming campaigns will not be asking for a cull of otters, thats for others to decide, we have the documented evidence. Our biggest problem are fellow anglers and organisations that are supposed to represent us.

If you do nothing, nothing will be done .....that's it really, I am happy to fail in trying to do my best, for the love of Barbel, its environment and for the barbel angler.

If the famous Spartacus example of unity was applied to anglingl it wouldn't be " I am Spartacus, no no I am Spartacus, no no no I am Spartacus etc....." it would be " I am Spartacus.....yes that's right you are Spartacus, not me mate, never seen you before....."

I am generalising with the last paragraph, the barbel society is a force for good as is most barbel anglers are.....but I am sure you get my drift.
 
It would be interesting to see the water tested so to speak with a small local campaign...say in Worcester with local anglers, clubs, tackle shops and guest house owners all stating the case of the damage otters do to the local fish stocks. just to see if you could get any momentum going and get the local EA fisheries on board and Angling Trust...get yourselves on telly and radio. I think you will get slaughtered but if your adamant on trying that's the sort of thing you'll have to put up with. It may just get you started, and it may just get your windows put in on your house every week.

You have to move on from the expectation that you'll get anglers joining you, it wont happen simple as that...your a minority within a minority. I honestly don't know what you honestly think you can achieve yourselves.

but again good luck.
 
I've spent a lot of my life campaigning on issues (not angling ones), long enough to have worked with thousands of wonderful Spartacuses on successful campaigns and failed ones, and long enough to see a total non-starter when I see one. The otters have won, they will continue to win with the UK public. If i wasn't an angler I'd be 100% on the otters' side. As an angler, I'm not 100% on their side, but I see the pointlessness of the battle when what has essentially happened is that an apex predator has been restored to its natural position, a position in which it is now massively popular with the general public.

Anti-predator campaigns should IMHO drop all dreams of an otter cull, which is never going to happen and just diminishes the public's sympathy to requests to cull the other predators (in fact it may help a pro-predatory-birds backlash, and ceratinly an anti-angling backlash).

The only thing that one day in the future might just lead to an otter cull in certain areas, maybe a generation hence, is when the RSPB see them actually wiping out certain waterfowl species. But that would only happen after a total and utter mink cull had failed to solve their problem with this decline in waterfowl.

As EA barbel stocking has been fairly effective, with caveats, on nearly all my local rivers in Yorkshire, that's where our campaign should IMHO be - to get them to stock in response to predation, which is not currently their policy. So they've successfully stocked most Yorkshire rivers but don't bother much with the Swale or Ure, which is a shame, as those have suffeed most from predation.

The days of 17 pound plus barbel on small rivers will not return, and IMHO were not 'natural' anyway. I personally don't get the fetish with the weight of big fat fish myself , most of whose biomass comes from unnatural consumption of large quantities of pellets and boilies anyway. Give me a lean barbel any time. And that "golden age of barbel fishing," after the barbel started to grow unnaturally fat and before the otters were re-introduced (and which happened so brutally quickly), will IMHO be seen just as a strange 20-year quirk of history.

Good stocking policies will see a "silver age" of barbel fishing where the fish are the size they were 30 years ago on the smaller rivers, but there are more of them. If rivers remain healthy in other ways, that is.

On the BIG rivers - Severn, Trent & Thames, 20 pounders will still occasionally be caught, hopefully forever, for those who like that kind of thing.
 
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Graham Shaw said:
I've spent a lot of my life campaigning on issues (not angling ones), long enough to have worked with thousands of wonderful Spartacuses on successful campaigns and failed ones, and long enough to see a total non-starter when I see one. The otters have won, they will continue to win with the UK public. If i wasn't an angler I'd be 100% on the otters' side. As an angler, I'm not 100% on their side, but I see the pointlessness of the battle when what has essentially happened is that a massively popular apex predator has been restored to its natural position.

Anti-predator campaigns should IMHO drop all dreams of an otter cull, which is never going to happen and just diminishes the public's sympathy to requests to cull the other predators (in fact it may help a pro-predatory-birds backlash, and ceratinly an anti-angling backlash).

The only thing that one day in the future might just lead to an otter cull in certain areas, maybe a generation hence, is when the RSPB see them actually wiping out certain waterfowl species. But that would only happen after a total and utter mink cull had failed to solve their problem with this decline in waterfowl.

As EA barbel stocking has been fairly effective, with caveats, on nearly all my local rivers in Yorkshire, that's where our campaign should IMHO be - to get them to stock in response to predation, which is not currently their policy. So they've successfully stocked most Yorkshire rivers but don't bother much with the Swale or Ure, which is a shame, as those have suffeed most from predation.

The days of 17 pound plus barbel on small rivers will not return, and IMHO were not natural anyway. I don't get the fetish with the weight of big fat fish myself anyway, most of whose biomass comes from unnatural consumption of large quantities of pellets and boilies anyway. Give me a lean barbel any time. And that "golden age of barbel fishing," after the barbel started to grow unnaturally fat and before the otters were re-introduced (and which happened so brutally quickly), will IMHO be seen just as a strange 20-year quirk of history.

Good stocking policies will see a "silver age" of barbel fishing where the fish are the size they were 30 years ago on the smaller rivers, but there are more of them. If rivers remain healthy in other ways, that is.

On the BIG rivers - Severn, Trent & Thames, 20 pounders will still occasionally be caught, hopefully forever, for those who like that kind of thing.
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I have to say Graham that's the most sensible thing I've ever heard about otters when it comes to angling, surely the likes of Terry and Lawrence cannot dismiss the reality of it and carry on themselves in the same way?
 
Thanks Jason. I'm not telling anyone what not to campaign about, I'm just explaining how it isn't apathy that will stop people joining the Spartacuses on this one. It's just realism.
 
And I think the point about stocking is valid, I live in Oxford where the otters hit first when they returned. lots of stocking of barbel happened and to be honest its been a success, we now have barbel anglers back on the Thames through Oxford, which is a real shame for me as I now cant get on my favourite swims!
 
Graham Shaw said:
Thanks Jason. I'm not telling anyone what not to campaign about, I'm just explaining how it isn't apathy that will stop people joining the Spartacuses on this one. It's just realism.
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I've been waiting for the "It's not apathy, it's realism" comment, and I can see where you're coming from. That said, I believe your sentiments are wrong ....and I say "sentiments", as opposed to thinking/logic, as we can't see into the future. No, I don't for a second believe that there will be an otter cull (not in my lifetime anyway), but what I do foresee is further introductions of otters. This to me would create a riverine dystopia.
IMO there SO needs to be a recognition that havoc has already been caused by the introduction of otters. The present ecosystem is unsustainable, and more otters will push rivers 'over the edge' IMO. My main message would be "Think on".
 
But surely they'll soon spread naturally to maximum levels anyway?

Even the "think on" message will cause anti-angler feeling among the general public, if say for example anglers started to campaign against the recent trend for building daft tokenistic artificial otter holts in riverside parks

Here in Leeds, as a pathetic example of one hand of the EA pretending not to know what the other is doing, while they are going to further straighten the river and destroy even more fish habitats on one stretch under the guise of flood prevention, on the next stretch up they'll restore one very limited area of urban flood plain with "habitats for birds, fish and mammals, including otters."

Yes the local anglers could kick up a fuss about that sort of thing, and try to get the RSPB involved with how the otters will eat all the ducks as well as the fish .... but that would surely just make the anglers very unpopular .... and anyway otters and mink are already pretty much at capacity around here ... in fact I'm surprised they haven't done a BBC Springwatch Special on the urban otters of Leeds yet ... shhhsh don't give them ideas, Graham.
 
Terry Simner said:
I've been waiting for the "It's not apathy, it's realism" comment, and I can see where you're coming from. That said, I believe your sentiments are wrong ....and I say "sentiments", as opposed to thinking/logic, as we can't see into the future.
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Terry regarding the seeing into the future you can, not being funny but you guys out on the Severn around Worcester are over 10 years behind what happened with otters in Oxfordshire and the Armageddon that you Loz and Des predict does not happen. As we know the small rivers get hit hard but they don't get completely wiped out and with help from stocking they survive.

As Des seems to be the most vocal on the otter issue I watched his Facebook post in total disbelief where he compared the otter situation to pedophile's and the church...saying no body listened to the children and he feels that history will prove him right with otters. Any person of sound mind would not make that comparison and I still can't beleive what I saw,

Over the years I've enjoyed listening to and reading his articles but I feel he's lost the plot and I fear for his health if he carries on like that. His friends need to have a word with him and drag him back to reality, perhaps his friends need a reality check themselves.
 
Jason Bean said:
Neil, I've been through this before with you... a keepnet used correctly causes no harm to a barbel what so ever, a specimen anglers man handling, taking multi photo's and weighing of fish in the blazing sun are more likely to do damage to fish.

its down to the anglers common sense but a lot don't have it or know the "correct" way to handle barbel
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Sorry Jason but stepping aside from the general discussion.....
Barbel DO NOT belong in keep nets. I don’t care how much common sense people say they have got.
They require such a high level of care and attention it’s absolute criminal to keep them in a keep net.
As anglers we recover that fish properly as I’m sure you’ll know. once we are happy to release it, that recovery process still continues and the fish takes care of this on its own by swimming back down to the clean gravel in the main flow. It could sit there for a couple of hours regaining that energy. In a keep net it cannot do this and you very much put it at risk. I’d happily challenge anyone I saw on the bank putting barbel in keepnets.
 
Jason Bean said:
Terry regarding the seeing into the future you can, not being funny but you guys out on the Severn around Worcester are over 10 years behind what happened with otters in Oxfordshire and the Armageddon that you Loz and Des predict does not happen. As we know the small rivers get hit hard but they don't get completely wiped out and with help from stocking they survive.

As Des seems to be the most vocal on the otter issue I watched his Facebook post in total disbelief where he compared the otter situation to pedophile's and the church...saying no body listened to the children and he feels that history will prove him right with otters. Any person of sound mind would not make that comparison and I still can't beleive what I saw,

Over the years I've enjoyed listening to and reading his articles but I feel he's lost the plot and I fear for his health if he carries on like that. His friends need to have a word with him and drag him back to reality, perhaps his friends need a reality check themselves.
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I'd suggest you come down here to Bewdley and have a word with him yourself. He's a lad eh. ;)
 
Richard Isaacs said:
Sorry Jason but stepping aside from the general discussion.....
Barbel DO NOT belong in keep nets. I don’t care how much common sense people say they have got.
They require such a high level of care and attention it’s absolute criminal to keep them in a keep net.
As anglers we recover that fish properly as I’m sure you’ll know. once we are happy to release it, that recovery process still continues and the fish takes care of this on its own by swimming back down to the clean gravel in the main flow. It could sit there for a couple of hours regaining that energy. In a keep net it cannot do this and you very much put it at risk. I’d happily challenge anyone I saw on the bank putting barbel in keepnets.
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fully understand your point of view but we will have to disagree on the use of keepnets
 
Jason Bean said:
A couple of years ago I would have loved to met him but now have to listening to him I don't no whether I would feel safe if I dared to disagree with a word he said.
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Just say the word and I'll try to fix up a meeting for you in the Blount Arms. Fancy it Des?🍻🍻🍻🍻
 
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