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Angling Times otter article

Paul Rogers said:
In my humble opinion.
Ok guys... But what gave the Otter the opportunity to eat the barbel? If the water quality has dropped, as with the kennet; the fish are sick from gorging on unhealthy baits we as anglers use, that means they also lose their sexual drive to spawn or even produce eggs..... Bad handling by novices to barbel fishing who mishandle and don't rest the fish enough.
Graham, the wye has declined in the years of increase in chicken farming oversaturating the river with Phosphates. the kennet decline from the reopening of the navigation.
So a perfect storm.,.....Old fish and no younger fish coming through because of the shit they eat (Pellets) and lack of a large enough food source for the Otter, so they turn to the easy meal........... A slow sick bloated barbel created by our need to continue catching a bigger one at any costs.

Would it not be a good idea if we as anglers stopped looking at Otters and other water users as enemies, and looked at meeting them were they are at and fighting a common fight........ Bad water usage for profit.
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Paul.
I didn't say otters were the exclusive factor.

But IMO A Significant factor certainly.
 
Joe Winstanley said:
I find it quite amazing that people seem shocked and upset by the sight of otters predating wildfowl. Otters have been predating wildfowl since time immemorial, it's what they do. And it's one if the reasons why most species of native British wildfowl have evolved to produce large broods of young.

That people find this natural behaviour upsetting shows just how disconnected from nature most people have become.
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Yes but, Joe public thought they only ate fish. Fish are slimy and horrible, so that's not a major concern for the general public. It's wake up time.
 
Terry Simner said:
I find it incredible that some anglers still don't believe that the introduction of hundreds and thousands of farmed otters hasn't had a significant impact on our fish stocks. I'm minded of anti-vaxxers, conspiracists, and Covid 19 deniers.
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'hundreds and thousands of farmed otters' 😂

Where are all these secret otter farms?

I also find it hard to believe that anglers can't get their heads around the fact that otters population is at the level it currently is principally because of natural recolonization. Not the result of 166 otters reintroduced over a 16-year period between 1983 and 1996 in East Anglia, Thames and East Yorks.
 
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Terry Simner said:
I find it incredible that some anglers still don't believe that the introduction of hundreds and thousands of farmed otters hasn't had a significant impact on our fish stocks. I'm minded of anti-vaxxers, conspiracists, and Covid 19 deniers.
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I would be surprised if an angler believed that. I can only discuss the rivers I fish around West Oxfordshire and it was evident at the time as it is now factors other than otters occurred simultaneously. The first thing I noticed was the flow of the Thames dropped dramatically and after the 2007 floods the river became tightly controlled by lock keepers. When visiting other rivers I am always struck by the flow even in low level conditions. You just have to listen to the pleasure anglers around here when the river does flow. They have become so used to watching a static waggler. Then the crayfish appeared and carpetted the Upper Thames. A survey on the infamous Northmoor stretch indicated 100 crays per square metre. Alongside this was a surge in sewage and other pollutants - you name it and it's in the Thames. Abstraction rocketed as did building on flood plains. 1000s of trees have been, and are being, cut down. 99% of the gravel beds are silted.

It occurred to me the number of moorhens, coots, and ducks, etc., were being gobbled up by otters. Then I realised there is so little bankside vegetation and cover around these days they have probably moved on.

It's all been said before. We all know the issues. Some just put them in a different order.

I distinctly remember ten years ago bemoaning these issues to an angler I came across during a session. He asked whether I had a gun in my pocket. A week or so later I repeated my mistake to another angler who asked whether I had ever considered taking up golf.

If I'm lucky I have another 10 years fishing left. I decided some time ago to try to make the most of it. It's hard especially as I am so easily wound up by boat traffic, dog walkers, and those walkie talkie people who want everyone in a two mile radius to hear what they are discussing with their walking companion.
 
Joe Winstanley said:
...That people find this natural behaviour upsetting shows just how disconnected from nature most people have become.
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Most anglers these days have become disconnected from nature, Joe.
I was thinking the other day about the frailty that dictates a need to be in control, the need to know this, that or the other! Years ago we just readily accepted the way that things were, these days we just cannot, indeed, accepting we are not in control and we don't know what life is going to bring us is an entirely fearful notion.
Most people don't care if some anglers that care only for catching a fish that has been stocked nationwide catch less than they once did. Indeed from some anglers the only response to that point may well only be, 'yeah, but I don't catch my barbel anymore!', ad infinitum!
Some comments defy logic they are so alarmist and unbalanced, and only a little research shows them to be the case!
Isn't it entirely possible that otters have been resident in the rivers of England largely unnoticed but through poor recruitment for perhaps a number of reasons have found themselves in the spotlight?
 
Damian Kimmins said:
Most anglers these days have become disconnected from nature, Joe.
I was thinking the other day about the frailty that dictates a need to be in control, the need to know this, that or the other! Years ago we just readily accepted the way that things were, these days we just cannot, indeed, accepting we are not in control and we don't know what life is going to bring us is an entirely fearful notion.
Most people don't care if some anglers that care only for catching a fish that has been stocked nationwide catch less than they once did. Indeed from some anglers the only response to that point may well only be, 'yeah, but I don't catch my barbel anymore!', ad infinitum!
Some comments defy logic they are so alarmist and unbalanced, and only a little research shows them to be the case!
Isn't it entirely possible that otters have been resident in the rivers of England largely unnoticed but through poor recruitment for perhaps a number of reasons have found themselves in the spotlight?
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In reply to the last paragraph. No.
 
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence! Your affirmation that it is a silly thought is only on the basis that you didn't see any.
I saw my first otter back in '97 on the H. Avon. From memory these large females that are reported to have been eaten to the point of barbel populations collapsing have been literally responsible on their own for the popularity of the river to today! However, it was evident prior to that that the river had a problem with recruitment.
What is your most recent PB Phil?
 
Damian Kimmins said:
Most anglers these days have become
Isn't it entirely possible that otters have been resident in the rivers of England largely unnoticed but through poor recruitment for perhaps a number of reasons have found themselves in the spotlight?
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Unlikely I would think, other than the odd one. If you know what your looking for signs of otters signs are pretty easy to find.

The reasons behind the spectacular crash in the otter population between the 60’s and the mid 80’s is well understood (organochlorines), the parallels with the decline and rise in raptors is pretty striking.

I think it is often overlooked that in some parts of England and Wales the otter population managed to hold on. The rivers of the West Country and in Wales including the headwaters and tributaries of rivers such as the Teme, Severn, Wye and Dee. Organochlorine seed dressings were all largely banned by the mid 80’s, and it was at this point that the otter population slowly began to naturally recover.

The limited reintroductions in east Anglia and parts of the Thames will have had little, if any, impact on the natural recolonisation of otter populations expanding exponentially west from Wales. These otters pushed out from their natal territories on smaller rivers in Wales, must have thought they had arrived on some sort of otter heaven when they found their way down to rivers like the Teme. It’s not hugely surprising that the Teme was one of the first rivers to see the impacts of otter predation on barbel.
 
Edward Adcock said:
It occurred to me the number of moorhens, coots, and ducks, etc., were being gobbled up by otters. Then I realised there is so little bankside vegetation and cover around these days they have probably moved on.
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Plenty of bankside vegetation on much of the Ouse, in many places the they're so neglected it's impossible to get close enough to fish the river.
Rivers are no longer a priority for many clubs these days.
 
Hi men

The well documented release of otters in the upper Thames catchment did have a marked effect on barbel numbers , in fact a crash on the rivers we fished , Windrush , Cherwell , Evenlode , before our very eyes . Sight fishing on these rivers went from a pleasure , and catching , to heartbreak and walking away . The spread through the Kennet has seen another massive drop in catch rates , and many stretches not even fished anymore . Seems a slight recovery in my local Ouse , but after years , and millions of little barbel being tipped in so it should 🙄 .

Otters hiding 😲 , nearly as bad as John Baileys the barbel are hiding 🙄.

Nothing can be done , put thousand of fish a year in and hope some get to adulthood .

Hatter
 
Mark Anderson said:
Hi men

The well documented release of otters in the upper Thames catchment did have a marked effect on barbel numbers , in fact a crash on the rivers we fished , Windrush , Cherwell , Evenlode , before our very eyes . Sight fishing on these rivers went from a pleasure , and catching , to heartbreak and walking away . The spread through the Kennet has seen another massive drop in catch rates , and many stretches not even fished anymore . Seems a slight recovery in my local Ouse , but after years , and millions of little barbel being tipped in so it should 🙄 .

Otters hiding 😲 , nearly as bad as John Baileys the barbel are hiding 🙄.

Nothing can be done , put thousand of fish a year in and hope some get to adulthood .

Hatter
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Do you not think it worth trying to improve water quality and habitat to give fish a better chance of reproductive success?
 
Mark Anderson said:
Hi men

The well documented release of otters in the upper Thames catchment did have a marked effect on barbel numbers , in fact a crash on the rivers we fished , Windrush , Cherwell , Evenlode , before our very eyes . Sight fishing on these rivers went from a pleasure , and catching , to heartbreak and walking away . The spread through the Kennet has seen another massive drop in catch rates , and many stretches not even fished anymore . Seems a slight recovery in my local Ouse , but after years , and millions of little barbel being tipped in so it should 🙄 .

Otters hiding 😲 , nearly as bad as John Baileys the barbel are hiding 🙄.

Nothing can be done , put thousand of fish a year in and hope some get to adulthood .

Hatter
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I always used to enjoy going bankside in may, walking the river where barbel spawned in many places and watching the courtship and spawning. You'll see sod all now on the Ouse and Ivel. 😪
 
Joe Winstanley said:
Unlikely I would think, other than the odd one. If you know what your looking for signs of otters signs are pretty easy to find.

The reasons behind the spectacular crash in the otter population between the 60’s and the mid 80’s is well understood (organochlorines), the parallels with the decline and rise in raptors is pretty striking.

I think it is often overlooked that in some parts of England and Wales the otter population managed to hold on. The rivers of the West Country and in Wales including the headwaters and tributaries of rivers such as the Teme, Severn, Wye and Dee. Organochlorine seed dressings were all largely banned by the mid 80’s, and it was at this point that the otter population slowly began to naturally recover.

The limited reintroductions in east Anglia and parts of the Thames will have had little, if any, impact on the natural recolonisation of otter populations expanding exponentially west from Wales. These otters pushed out from their natal territories on smaller rivers in Wales, must have thought they had arrived on some sort of otter heaven when they found their way down to rivers like the Teme. It’s not hugely surprising that the Teme was one of the first rivers to see the impacts of otter predation on barbel.
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Ok Joe, re. the Teme : As someone who has worked in this 'field', obviously studied a lot, and believes wholehearted in the official figures put forward (as "THE FACTS"*) on the number of otters released (i.e. just 166 in the 16 years between 1983 and 1999 period) , how do you see the chain of events leading from the banning of all organochlorines (DDT etc) by/in 1984, to the boom in barbel numbers in the 90's, the slow decline the numbers during the 2000's, to the dramatic collapse in numbers (occurring, IMO, in 2012/13)?) How do you see the chain of events, and, if otters didn't play a significant part (as I suggested previously) in the population collapse, what part did otters play (if any)? Do you think that the otters themselves were effected by the organochlorines that were undoubtedly still being used and in the rivers in 1983 (when otters were first introduced) and still leaching through in the late 80's and 90's? Did this very same chain of events occur across the UK (Bristol Avon - Cherwell - Kennet etc wide) at more or less the very same time (without otters having a significant effect on this population collapse)?
Finally, why are the Wye and the Trent (which have always had some otters in them) only now seeing a fall off in barbel numbers? What, in your obviously studied and informed opinion, is the mechanism behind this dramatic 'boom and bust' that's been taking place since the mid 1980's?

*
 
Terry Simner said:
Ok Joe, re. the Teme : As someone who has worked in this 'field', obviously studied a lot, and believes wholehearted in the official figures put forward (as "THE FACTS"*) on the number of otters released (i.e. just 166 in the 16 years between 1983 and 1999 period) , how do you see the chain of events leading from the banning of all organochlorines (DDT etc) by/in 1984, to the boom in barbel numbers in the 90's, the slow decline the numbers during the 2000's, to the dramatic collapse in numbers (occurring, IMO, in 2012/13)?) How do you see the chain of events, and, if otters didn't play a significant part (as I suggested previously) in the population collapse, what part did otters play (if any)? Do you think that the otters themselves were effected by the organochlorines that were undoubtedly still being used and in the rivers in 1983 (when otters were first introduced) and still leaching through in the late 80's and 90's? Did this very same chain of events occur across the UK (Bristol Avon - Cherwell - Kennet etc wide) at more or less the very same time (without otters having a significant effect on this population collapse)?
Finally, why are the Wye and the Trent (which have always had some otters in them) only now seeing a fall off in barbel numbers? What, in your obviously studied and informed opinion, is the mechanism behind this dramatic 'boom and bust' that's been taking place since the mid 1980's?

*
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I don't believe that outside of the officially documented releases between the 83 and 99 there have been significant numbers of unofficial releases, I'm sure there are those ad-hoc 'rehabilitation' type releases from otters hit by traffic etc, but nothing on the scale that some anglers are convinced has and is occurring.

Organochlorines - I believe the most damaging organochlorine was dieldrin which was banned for large scale application in the early 60's, but as you allude to is very persistent organic pollutant and takes decades to leach out of the soil. A study by Cardiff University which did post-mortems on dead otters found high levels of dieldrin were still to be found in 100% of the samples between 2001 and 2003. As well as lots of other banned PCB's and organochlorines. I'm no expert but this must have still been having some sort of negative impact? I can only surmise that this impact would reduce as PCB's and organochlorines gradually leach out over time.

Levels of these nasties were also noticeably higher in the Midlands than in other region, why I'm not sure. The situation will have been different in different river catchments for all manner of differing reasons, including annual rainfall, soil characteristics, hydrology, land use, varying historic use of organochlorines.

Personally I believe the situation with otters and barbel is typical of what is found in other habitats and ecosystems. When a habitat becomes damaged and degraded, the impact of predation becomes profound. Our rivers are in a terrible state due to siltation, abstraction, chemical pollution, increasing phosphate levels, poor riparian habitat, farming practices, 100,000's of septic tank systems that are not fit for purpose, sewage discharge by the water authorities the list goes on. In the main, all these factors seem to have got a lot lot worse in the last 20 years - you must have noticed the exponential rise in maize growth where you live, and all the silt and run-off that comes with it. The decline of the small extensive livestock farm replaced by large intensive agri-businesses.

I don't dispute the impact otters have on barbel in small rivers, it's just I believe there are lots of other factors at play also. And I believe the current otter population is where it is at because of natural recolonisation.
 
Joe.
With any introduction or re introduction of species, what we always seem to see is an initial spurt.

As per barbel in the Severn, crayfish, and other types of mammals....rabbits in Oz for example.

This happens until a balance gets achieved according to environmental factors, available food etc.

Otter expansion has been fast. Obvious from the sightings now being made.

There will eventually be a balance achieved, but meanwhile they have a serious affect on fish populations. More so due to the Eel numbers.
 
Joe Winstanley said:
I don't believe that outside of the officially documented releases between the 83 and 99 there have been significant numbers of unofficial releases, I'm sure there are those ad-hoc 'rehabilitation' type releases from otters hit by traffic etc, but nothing on the scale that some anglers are convinced has and is occurring.

Organochlorines - I believe the most damaging organochlorine was dieldrin which was banned for large scale application in the early 60's, but as you allude to is very persistent organic pollutant and takes decades to leach out of the soil. A study by Cardiff University which did post-mortems on dead otters found high levels of dieldrin were still to be found in 100% of the samples between 2001 and 2003. As well as lots of other banned PCB's and organochlorines. I'm no expert but this must have still been having some sort of negative impact? I can only surmise that this impact would reduce as PCB's and organochlorines gradually leach out over time.

Levels of these nasties were also noticeably higher in the Midlands than in other region, why I'm not sure. The situation will have been different in different river catchments for all manner of differing reasons, including annual rainfall, soil characteristics, hydrology, land use, varying historic use of organochlorines.

Personally I believe the situation with otters and barbel is typical of what is found in other habitats and ecosystems. When a habitat becomes damaged and degraded, the impact of predation becomes profound. Our rivers are in a terrible state due to siltation, abstraction, chemical pollution, increasing phosphate levels, poor riparian habitat, farming practices, 100,000's of septic tank systems that are not fit for purpose, sewage discharge by the water authorities the list goes on. In the main, all these factors seem to have got a lot lot worse in the last 20 years - you must have noticed the exponential rise in maize growth where you live, and all the silt and run-off that comes with it. The decline of the small extensive livestock farm replaced by large intensive agri-businesses.

I don't dispute the impact otters have on barbel in small rivers, it's just I believe there are lots of other factors at play also. And I believe the current otter population is where it is at because of natural recolonisation.
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Thanks Joe, great post ... as ever. Whilst I (obviously) don't agree with all your thoughts/conclusions/surmises, I do agree that otters are only one 'bullet' in the 'riddled body' of the dying body of our rivers (but maybe it's a "0.500"!). But whilst I respect your posited argument, I do believe that if pesticides were the major factor in the decline of barbel populations, spate rivers (such as the Teme) should have suffered less than non-spate water courses. That said, I fully accept that flow rate is only one factor in such an 'eco-equation'.
 
Terry Simner said:
Thanks Joe, great post ... as ever. Whilst I (obviously) don't agree with all your thoughts/conclusions/surmises, I do agree that otters are only one 'bullet' in the 'riddled body' of the dying body of our rivers (but maybe it's a "0.500"!). But whilst I respect your posited argument, I do believe that if pesticides were the major factor in the decline of barbel populations, spate rivers (such as the Teme) should have suffered less than non-spate water courses. That said, I fully accept that flow rate is only one factor in such an 'eco-equation'.
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Re pesticides - it all depends on the compound, the soil type, land-use and rainfall.

If you take the Teme for example, a large proportion of the catchment is dominated by free-draining loamy soils which are in arable cultivation and the subject to moderately high annual rainfall. As you say its a spate river and is fed by surface water, hence the majority of water will will have flowed through the soil and into the river. Pretty good conditions of leaching you would say.
 
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