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Anglers Mail - John Bailey Article

Ian Crook

Ian Crook

Senior Member
Bravo John,

Finally, someone has published an opinion, based on very solid scientific facts and research similar to that which I have been arguing on here now for 4 years that Barbel are still there in our rivers in the same sort of numbers they have been for decades, they have just become wiser, more survival concious and hence harder to catch............ Oh, and the chub too............

Thank you Mr. Bailey.
 
Hi Ian,I read the said article and it left me wondering if that is the case why we are blaming the otter for decimating our rivers ? Something not quite right here.
Albert:)
 
Absolute rubbish tell him to come fish my stretch of the Bristol Avon which had lots of very nice barbel in it but not anymore.
Thanks
Andy
 
I have only looked at a brief summary of the article. If otters are present they will have an impact on fish stocks. How much depends on many factors. This is a potentially massive research product with many unknown variables. With a research project, only one variable can be changed at a time to make the study worthwhile. Any science GCSE text book will confirm this. I'm more inclined to believe those people who have witnessed in "their" rivers the barbel decline with the arrival of otters. I don't believe that two brains barbel exists and have learnt to fight off otters - I suspect that the barbel don't have too many opportunities to skirmish with otters, learn lessons and live to fight another day.
 
Having caught on the Kennet this year the ratio of about 10 fish over 9lb to 1 under 9lb it is apparent that.


1/ There are not many fish coming through or

2/ Older doesn't mean wiser in the fish world :rolleyes:

I wonder if Ian G has found the same on the Loddon?????
 
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Jim, to my knowledge, no one has actually witnessed a decline in the Barbel population on their rivers, they have only witnessed a decline of their catch rates.............. everything else is hearsay......

Yes there have been a few barbel found ottered, I would wholly agree with that.

The study/research as far as I am concerned is pretty solid, I have had the pleasure of meeting Karen Twine in person as she has been appointed the EA fisheries officer for the Loddon catchment, watched and listened to her present of her study and discussed the results at length..........

You lot are just like some of the anglers she spoke to regularly during her two years out on the bank tracking tagged barbel, very good anglers who had caught barbel for years but were now complaining about the fact that the Barbel population had gone. They were astounded when she started to show them numbers of tagged barbel in their swims every day, which would indicate there would also be numbers of untagged barbel there too and still they could not buy a bite.

This was on the Great Ouse, on a stretch which according to everyone had been ottered to extinction, yet not a single tagged fish was ottered during over two years of tracking...........

You guys will probably just spend your dying days complaining about problems which don't exist, let's face it, that is much easier than trying to figure out what you are doing wrong or changing your thought patterns........

Graham, my info is straight from Karen, I am just praising John for having the bottle to stand up against the flow and present that info, which is unquestionable by the way, to the masses.

Andy, I know nothing about the Bristol Avon other than like many rivers it has seen a huge decline in Barbel catch returns, do you know for a fact that populations have massively declined, i.e. through extensive electro fishing?? If so I will stand corrected on that one river.
 
> If so I will stand corrected on that one river

Unless the study included all other barbel rivers as well as the Ouse, any assertions made about those other rivers based on said study is conjecture.

Just saying...
 
Graham, my info is straight from Karen, I am just praising John for having the bottle to stand up against the flow and present that info, which is unquestionable by the way, to the masses.


Not wishing to question research I haven't had the pleasure of reading but in my experience, nothing is unquestionable. We may not have thought up the relevant questions yet but, still that doesn't mean that a thing is unquestionable.
 
When I have had a beer or two I sometimes believe the rumours surrounding area 51. Moon landing sceptic theories and Elvis lives and works in Kristy Mac'Coll's chip shop.
When I am so social I can barely walk you may convince me the moon is made of green cheese. Once when totally incapable of speech I was convinced I could fly but I have never ever believed anything the EA have said about how our rivers are improving under their management.
 
If the fish are still there in numbers why do the EA still continue to stock the Ouse and stretches of the Lea ?

Fish in numbers get caught, simple, the Upper Lea is a good example where numbers exist and the fish get caught on a daily basis. The lower Lea where the fish stocks are poor, odd fish get caught.
 
Kevin Daly said:
Barbel have got wiser? Ian you’re talking about the thickest fish in Christendom.
Click to expand...

Maybe they are and I have certainly found that they make weedy chess opponents, but I am not sure that means they are incapable of evolving in a bid to survive-by recognsing patterns (no not from a knitting book) and danger triggers etc.
 
Howard Cooke said:
Maybe they are and I have certainly found that they make weedy chess opponents, but I am not sure that means they are incapable of evolving in a bid to survive-by recognsing patterns (no not from a knitting book) and danger triggers etc.
Click to expand...

Howard, Evolve? from what? Nothing fundamental has changed since Isaac Walton. I know some river fishermen think Barbel a new invention but they have been about since God was mates with Lucifer and they fished the Swale at Topcliff weir together.
 
I have no indisputable scientific proof either way on this contentious subject Ian...which adds me on to the same list as just about everyone else, until a very extensive, properly scientiffically controlled in depth research project is carried out. So for me, I have to rely on logic, until proven wrong.

Logic tells me that because it takes millions of years for a species to evolve...any change to that species takes a VERY long time to happen. However, such things have occasionally occurred..so it is a very outside possibility.

Apparently, on certain areas of rivers such as the Wye, Trent and Severn, barbel are still being caught in huge numbers...so if a newly developed fast track learning curve has taught barbel how to avoid being caught....why haven't the barbel in those areas learnt that lesson? Are they particularly slow learners in those areas? I might add that I still catch on the occasions when I go out...so they can't be that bright...trust me on that one mate :p

Apparently, anglers in SOME clear rivers are not only no longer catching any fish...they are not seeing them any more either. The traditional shallows and spawning areas, where fish were traditionally easily spotted (often in huge numbers in the spring...for as long as most local anglers can remember)...are now occasionally devoid of fish...certainly if there are fish, they are in etremely reduced numbers. Logic suggests that in that case, either the fish have learned some VERY advanced stuff...or the anglers are lying...or the fish aint there.

Fish in SOME lakes apparently have been pretty well wiped out when otters have arrived on the scene...and in fairly short order. Agreed, the fish can't run as far in that situation...but it does suggest that barbel are capable...and daft enough...to do that.

Finally, logic suggests to me that it would be an all time record bonza of a coincidence if barbel have APPARENTLY disappeared in some areas....at exactly the same time as otters turned up in that same area. And I don't have a lot of faith in coincidences.

Now...I am not saying all this just to be argumentative Crooky, or to challenge your views out of spite...nor to pick on you in any way. The fact is, I have no proof either way....all my views are based on hearsay. However, my instinct is to go with logic...backed by the experiences of a lot of top anglers. You go with the opinions of the young lady. Fair enough mate, and I can't deny that she MAY be right. At the end of the day, it would be very good news if she were right :D

I just can't help having this sneaky feeling that on balance, the lads are right :p If you knew my missus, you would understand why Ian :D:D

Cheers, Dave.
 
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Ian Crook said:
Jim, to my knowledge, no one has actually witnessed a decline in the Barbel population on their rivers, they have only witnessed a decline of their catch rates.............. everything else is hearsay......

Yes there have been a few barbel found ottered, I would wholly agree with that.

The study/research as far as I am concerned is pretty solid, I have had the pleasure of meeting Karen Twine in person as she has been appointed the EA fisheries officer for the Loddon catchment, watched and listened to her present of her study and discussed the results at length..........

You lot are just like some of the anglers she spoke to regularly during her two years out on the bank tracking tagged barbel, very good anglers who had caught barbel for years but were now complaining about the fact that the Barbel population had gone. They were astounded when she started to show them numbers of tagged barbel in their swims every day, which would indicate there would also be numbers of untagged barbel there too and still they could not buy a bite.

This was on the Great Ouse, on a stretch which according to everyone had been ottered to extinction, yet not a single tagged fish was ottered during over two years of tracking...........

You guys will probably just spend your dying days complaining about problems which don't exist, let's face it, that is much easier than trying to figure out what you are doing wrong or changing your thought patterns........

Graham, my info is straight from Karen, I am just praising John for having the bottle to stand up against the flow and present that info, which is unquestionable by the way, to the masses.

Andy, I know nothing about the Bristol Avon other than like many rivers it has seen a huge decline in Barbel catch returns, do you know for a fact that populations have massively declined, i.e. through extensive electro fishing?? If so I will stand corrected on that one river.
Click to expand...

That's great news, Ian. Glad to hear that Karen's research has proven that there are no otter issues and that the rivers throughout the country are unaffected. Clearly, the barbel anglers need to freshen up their act as their angling skills have gone awol.

I would be interested to know the title of Karen's Ph.D and in all seriousness, I'd love to read it. Out of interest, do you happen to know the University where her Ph.D is based.

I also hear from the RSPB that there are no issues whatsoever with freshwater cormorant predation.
 
Could all those who know the details and outcomes of the project which Karen Twine undertook please put your hands up. The rest of you I can ignore until you understand what I am talking about.
 
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