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A hypothetical question…

I seem to remember reading something about it being all down to 'red and white muscle'??? That is, one is for sprinting, t'other for endurance...pike being rich in red muscle I believe?
Anyway I would have thought a barbel could cover 100m downstream in less than 20 seconds with great ease, and be gone in the blink of an otter's eye. They sure shoot off at times at the sight of luncheon meat (well, ANY of my baits:))! I DO believe that barbel will be one of the first (if not THE first) to be wiped out on an otter infested stretch, but I don't believe that swimming speed has much to do with it.
And maybe the 'why' is unimportant, outside of our musings. It appears to be the case, a 'given' .. i.e. what's important is that barbel ARE (by nature) susceptible, not how/why.
Dunno...maybe we won't know if 'the reason' is important until we do actually know that reason?

ATBA
 
Another theory is that the otter seems to only eat the vital organs in the throat region,and dismisses all the muscle bulk in the rest of the carcass.With the barbel being a sizeable fish these organs must be bigger than similar in smaller species,so bigger reward for the furry killers.They do exactly the same to carp,dragging a thirty out of the water only to rip its throat out
 
Another theory is that the otter seems to only eat the vital organs in the throat region,and dismisses all the muscle bulk in the rest of the carcass.With the barbel being a sizeable fish these organs must be bigger than similar in smaller species,so bigger reward for the furry killers.They do exactly the same to carp,dragging a thirty out of the water only to rip its throat out

Yes and what actually happens to the remaining balance carcass? If Otter are to blame for the Barbel slaughter you would think the river banks would be littered with them.
 
Neil,I haven't myself come across any dead barbel on the bankside thankfully,but with the amount other anglers speak of finding,the rats foxes etc must be thriving!
 
I seem to remember reading something about it being all down to 'red and white muscle'??? That is, one is for sprinting, t'other for endurance...pike being rich in red muscle I believe?
Anyway I would have thought a barbel could cover 100m downstream in less than 20 seconds with great ease, and be gone in the blink of an otter's eye. They sure shoot off at times at the sight of luncheon meat (well, ANY of my baits:))! I DO believe that barbel will be one of the first (if not THE first) to be wiped out on an otter infested stretch, but I don't believe that swimming speed has much to do with it.
And maybe the 'why' is unimportant, outside of our musings. It appears to be the case, a 'given' .. i.e. what's important is that barbel ARE (by nature) susceptible, not how/why.
Dunno...maybe we won't know if 'the reason' is important until we do actually know that reason?

ATBA

Nick Giles in The Nature of Barbel reckons they do 4 metres/second. I thought he had undercooked that a bit.

Otters will of course go for the biggest, easiest, meals they can get.
 
Thanks for the replies.

The bit of river I'm looking at is a long way from where it flows into the Bristol Avon and there are many barriers in the way to prevent the BA barbel moving up it. Because of the relatively low population of fish, there don't seem to be any otters about.

The only thing I'd be concerned about would be if my actions were to negatively affect the health of the river in some way.

On the otter debate, I'd always thought that the barbel were taken over other fish because they become so inactive during the winter. I believe this is when most are killed because they are easy targets. It might explain why us fisherman don't see many carcasses as well. Not many are fishing in sub zero temps so aren't seeing the bodies. By the time we get there when the conditions improve, the fox has tidied up. Just a thought.

I wonder, hypothetically speaking, when the best time to 'stock' fish into a river is.

Steve
 
Thanks for the replies.

The bit of river I'm looking at is a long way from where it flows into the Bristol Avon and there are many barriers in the way to prevent the BA barbel moving up it. Because of the relatively low population of fish, there don't seem to be any otters about.

The only thing I'd be concerned about would be if my actions were to negatively affect the health of the river in some way.

On the otter debate, I'd always thought that the barbel were taken over other fish because they become so inactive during the winter. I believe this is when most are killed because they are easy targets. It might explain why us fisherman don't see many carcasses as well. Not many are fishing in sub zero temps so aren't seeing the bodies. By the time we get there when the conditions improve, the fox has tidied up. Just a thought.

I wonder, hypothetically speaking, when the best time to 'stock' fish into a river is.

Steve
If Otter only took Barbel in the Winter, no wouldn't work for the Otter, and the reason that we anglers wouldn't see the carcass as it's winter No just No!

Like I say there is a lack of evidence regarding the Otter, lack of carcasses, you can't really make up reasons to blame the Otter, not if we are to actually get to the bottom of the dissapearing Barbel. Sure it might be Mr O, or it might be other factors, or a combination of many, however what is known is that when we all suggest that a river is devoid of Barbel, surprise surprise they turn up again.

Tagged Barbel were tracked and found to be alive and well when the experts amongst us swore they had all been eaten, funny that!! Of course we anglers always need an excuse don't we? What better villain than an Otter :)

Also you need a license to introduce fish into a watercourse, pretty sure of that, so best not pursue this stocking of Barbel on here, especially here, there are some influencial folk who visit BFW.
 
Daft as it sounds Derek I have vague memories of some sort of study been done re fastest swimming fish / how long they could keep up a speed [ sprinter versus endurance ] . I seem to recall that Salmon and Barbel were the speed merchants , on the other hand this could be a pure figment of my imagination and I can't be faffed to google it .

I think Tony Rocca posted that piece of evidence Mike. Rings true to me.

Dave
 
One of my local river's fish populations is thriving in spite of otters being an ever present in daylight. My own theory (with absolutely zero scientific evidence with which to support it) is that when the otters were first introduced the barbel and other fish were easy prey because they were not accustomed to this new predator. They have quickly learned of the threat though and my gut feeling is some sort of natural balance has returned. However, i think big barbel are an easier prey and my results, and those of others, suggest that some of my stretch's largest residents may be inhabiting the large gravel bed in the sky.

Purely anecdotal of course...
 
I tend to agree with some, that we are extremely quick to blame Otters for Barbel decline and worse, decimation on many rivers. I say this as i have never seen much evidence that this is case and was wondering if anyone has any links that may suggest otherwise?

Many Thanks
Stephen
 
Stephen...I s'pose suspicions were raised when otters appeared and the barbel disappeared soon after. Maybe the two aren't linked..that's what the PhD study is all about (looking for the smoking gun etc). IMHO there's more chance of it being otters than, say EE's. But maybe its just cyclic. I reckon the wise (i.e. un-bigoted) stance is to be 'agnostic' until we know more.
 
It's a fairly well know fact that Otters were artificially introduced (allowed to 'escape') from 2 different sources near the Bristol Avon. There were already otters present on the river and had been for years. It's no coincidence that in the time frame after the boost in otter numbers, barbel numbers declined rapidly.

You could argue that the really big fish came to the end of their life naturally, but why would the huge number of 5lb - 9lb suddenly vanish at the same time!? Across the whole river...From Malmesbury to Bath, the story is the same. 10 years ago the river was considered to be in the top 10 barbel rivers in the country.

Neil - I'm fairly sure you need a license to release apex predators into the wild, I'd bet my hat that no one pursued the otter breeders. I'm obviously not going to state that I'm releasing fish on here. I'm just interested in hearing from people who know about such things...

Steve
 
Oh lord, here we go again. Barbel V otter threads on these boards must number in their thousands by now. Older members get a trifle fed up with the subject, because such threads invariably end in heated exchanges and lost tempers, which isn't good. I know new anglers join the forum on a regular basis, and quite naturally start asking the same old questions all over again, sort of 'Ding ding, round 148' type thing :D

So, can we not have a 'Hints for new members' section on here, in which it is suggested that new members do a search, read all the old threads before asking the same old same old? It would save my blood pressure issues for a start :D.

Anyway, to offer up my opinion in answer to the OP's question, the basic facts are that otters kill barbel, just as they kill anything else that swims, slithers, crawls or flies. If it is made of flesh, and if they can get to it, then they WILL kill it...they are the apex predators in their environment, so that is hardly surprising is it? As to the question "Why do they kill barbel in preference to any other fish?' I think the answer to that is....they don't. They are opportunistic killers, they will kill and eat anything which presents them with a reasonable opportunity. They no doubt have their favourites, but they are still ruled by the basic survival instinct which demands that they kill anything easy, anything that presents a good return of energy, a return which obviously MUST outweigh the energy expended in catching the prey item.

In my opinion, the idea that otters eat barbel in preference to other fish is brought about by several factors, some of which have already been mentioned. For instance, if a river has an issue, or more likely a collection of issues, which has brought about a situation whereby barbel have problems in successfully spawning, then the inevitable and obvious end result will be less, but far larger barbel populating that river.

The much quoted example of the Great Ouse in Bedfordshire, Adams Mill and Kickles Farm, are prime examples of this theory in action....fewer, bigger fish. Once that situation arises, and otters then return in great numbers, then those large old fish are doomed. They will no longer be as fast as the young, sporty teenagers they once were, and they probably have rarely if ever seen a barbel before. Add to that the fact that the same water issues that affected the barbel may well have decimated many of the other fishy residents....then there is only one way it's going to end really, isn't there? Bye bye Billy, probably never see your like again.....and hello theory that 'otters only kill big barbel'. The 'ripping the throat out' bit is true, but probably only where there is a glut of food available. So...in my opinion, otters do NOT prefer barbel, or large barbel in particular, for any other reason beyond the obvious fact that big barbel give big returns...because they ARE big...and they ARE slow....because they are old. An opportunistic killers dream.

I will add one thought to this, just because it rankles so much. It has been suggested on these boards that those huge barbel mentioned in the previous paragraph actually deserved to die :eek: The rather bizarre logic seems to be that these fish were somehow 'unnatural', they were likened to that most evil of all evils....'BIG CARP'.... (sorry if those two words have upset anyone of a delicate disposition :D)

The fact is that ALL of these fish are natural. They are natural to the set of circumstances that WE have forced upon them. The barbel didn't ask to have poor water quality that prevented successful spawning, the carp didn't ask to be placed in lakes where they are protected from predators, none of them asked to be fed huge quantities of high protein food...WE forced all that on them, and being natural born survivors...they took it all and somehow survived. They are the natural outcome of those circumstances. In what way then do these fish 'deserve to die'? Madness.

Cheers, Dave.
 
So thinning out the old slow Barbel will improve the gene pool? That's why predation is key, do we want quality or quantity? We are river anglers, Barbel have been equipped with the necessary instincts to survive Otter, they have done for millions of years.
There were just too many Barbel in many of our rivers, which helped no one or any other species, predation has a way of balancing things...In the long run.
Nice post by the way Dave.
 
So thinning out the old slow Barbel will improve the gene pool? That's why predation is key, do we want quality or quantity? We are river anglers, Barbel have been equipped with the necessary instincts to survive Otter, they have done for millions of years.
There were just too many Barbel in many of our rivers, which helped no one or any other species, predation has a way of balancing things...In the long run.
Nice post by the way Dave.

No no no Neil, think it through young sir:D. It is known that these fish (the Adams mill fish) were old (almost without doubt due to lack of predation), and being fish, they continued to grow throughout those extra years....which is why they were big. It is also possible (probable?) that they were over weight, due to lack of competition, and the amount of high protein/high fat food that they were being fed in later years. Add those things together, and it's highly likely that you will end up with slow fish.

There was almost certainly no genetic problem involved, merely a combination of extraordinary circumstances during the time they were growing. I would imagine that any barbel faced with the same, mostly man made issues....would end up as they did. However, it may well be that other unknown factors were involved, which made their situation rather unique...who knows?

To stretch probability a bit, it may be that the pollution that destroyed their ability to spawn successfully had ONLY that affect, and was otherwise actually beneficial to adult fish. Again, who knows? Another alternative is that these fish were rendered unable to spawn, period, rather than that they spawned, but the eggs were not viable. In that situation, they would re-absorb their eggs...and that's a lot of recycled energy! Whatever, it was us who caused the whole situation, the fish are the victims.

Cheers, Dave.
 
No no no Neil, think it through young sir:D. It is known that these fish (the Adams mill fish) were old (almost without doubt due to lack of predation), and being fish, they continued to grow throughout those extra years....which is why they were big. It is also possible (probable?) that they were over weight, due to lack of competition, and the amount of high protein/high fat food that they were being fed in later years. Add those things together, and it's highly likely that you will end up with slow fish.

There was almost certainly no genetic problem involved, merely a combination of extraordinary circumstances during the time they were growing. I would imagine that any barbel faced with the same, mostly man made issues....would end up as they did. However, it may well be that other unknown factors were involved, which made their situation rather unique...who knows?

To stretch probability a bit, it may be that the pollution that destroyed their ability to spawn successfully had ONLY that affect, and was otherwise actually beneficial to adult fish. Again, who knows? Another alternative is that these fish were rendered unable to spawn, period, rather than that they spawned, but the eggs were not viable. In that situation, they would re-absorb their eggs...and that's a lot of recycled energy! Whatever, it was us who caused the whole situation, the fish are the victims.

Cheers, Dave.


There are no 'victims' in nature as such, it's from predation and other factors,species adapt to survive and hence produce a stronger fitter model.
This is not fat belly farmed Carp Dave, Barbel are a free spirit are they not? That is why and many other angle for them, they are not as yet sullied by the need to make them bigger and easier to catch.


However recent events have the creeping feeling that somehow a bigger Barbel at all costs including cheating is worthwhile to gain sponsorship and fame, that is very familiar isn't it? Not that I have ever fished for Carp, but I am sure you could understand a lot better than me.

So please give up the sarcastic remarks, it would seem we are in agreement on a few issues, I have highlighted as a reminder for future reference as to why I an others fish for Barbel, and I suspect other converts from Carp do also.

So don't blow a fuse, take a seat and remember your Darwin.
 
Oh lord, here we go again. Barbel V otter threads on these boards must number in their thousands by now. Older members get a trifle fed up with the subject, because such threads invariably end in heated exchanges and lost tempers, which isn't good. I know new anglers join the forum on a regular basis, and quite naturally start asking the same old questions all over again, sort of 'Ding ding, round 148' type thing :D

So, can we not have a 'Hints for new members' section on here, in which it is suggested that new members do a search, read all the old threads before asking the same old same old? It would save my blood pressure issues for a start :D.

Anyway, to offer up my opinion in answer to the OP's question, the basic facts are that otters kill barbel, just as they kill anything else that swims, slithers, crawls or flies. If it is made of flesh, and if they can get to it, then they WILL kill it...they are the apex predators in their environment, so that is hardly surprising is it? As to the question "Why do they kill barbel in preference to any other fish?' I think the answer to that is....they don't. They are opportunistic killers, they will kill and eat anything which presents them with a reasonable opportunity. They no doubt have their favourites, but they are still ruled by the basic survival instinct which demands that they kill anything easy, anything that presents a good return of energy, a return which obviously MUST outweigh the energy expended in catching the prey item.

In my opinion, the idea that otters eat barbel in preference to other fish is brought about by several factors, some of which have already been mentioned. For instance, if a river has an issue, or more likely a collection of issues, which has brought about a situation whereby barbel have problems in successfully spawning, then the inevitable and obvious end result will be less, but far larger barbel populating that river.

The much quoted example of the Great Ouse in Bedfordshire, Adams Mill and Kickles Farm, are prime examples of this theory in action....fewer, bigger fish. Once that situation arises, and otters then return in great numbers, then those large old fish are doomed. They will no longer be as fast as the young, sporty teenagers they once were, and they probably have rarely if ever seen a barbel before. Add to that the fact that the same water issues that affected the barbel may well have decimated many of the other fishy residents....then there is only one way it's going to end really, isn't there? Bye bye Billy, probably never see your like again.....and hello theory that 'otters only kill big barbel'. The 'ripping the throat out' bit is true, but probably only where there is a glut of food available. So...in my opinion, otters do NOT prefer barbel, or large barbel in particular, for any other reason beyond the obvious fact that big barbel give big returns...because they ARE big...and they ARE slow....because they are old. An opportunistic killers dream.

I will add one thought to this, just because it rankles so much. It has been suggested on these boards that those huge barbel mentioned in the previous paragraph actually deserved to die :eek: The rather bizarre logic seems to be that these fish were somehow 'unnatural', they were likened to that most evil of all evils....'BIG CARP'.... (sorry if those two words have upset anyone of a delicate disposition :D)

The fact is that ALL of these fish are natural. They are natural to the set of circumstances that WE have forced upon them. The barbel didn't ask to have poor water quality that prevented successful spawning, the carp didn't ask to be placed in lakes where they are protected from predators, none of them asked to be fed huge quantities of high protein food...WE forced all that on them, and being natural born survivors...they took it all and somehow survived. They are the natural outcome of those circumstances. In what way then do these fish 'deserve to die'? Madness.

Cheers, Dave.

Dave, how about a 'hints for old members' section ? Members could make suggestions about what's the best blood pressure remedies and stuff like that maybe:D

Stephen
 
Darwin

Darwin's theory is only relevant to barbel adapting and surviving Neil when the genes of the survivors are passed on to their offspring. Unfortunately in many of our rivers, after the otters have removed the mature brood stock there are no offspring. Without further stockings by the EA, barbel would undoubtedly cease to exist in many of our rivers. Signal crayfish and over abstraction are the main problems and with no solution on the horizon I'm afraid the future looks bleak. Before otters, regular stockings masked the abysmal state of some of our rivers, now it is all too apparent.

Nick C
 
The stocking of fingerling/farmed barbel is rarely successful, in the first instance you must ensure you the correct sexual mix, nature does this brilliantly, but lets say you got the mix right and you would have have to stock them in their many tens of 1000's to ensure a few survive the first winter, predators and the uncontrolled wild environment they have been placed in, many of the stockings that take place by Calverton are a failure, yes the mini barbel are caught by maggot fishermen a few weeks after they have been put into a river and everyone thinks its wonderful, "look the barbel are breeding" they extol, then they disappear without trace, one of the best indicators that the EA have been stocking fingerling barbel is when they are caught by maggot and worm fisherman, in a normal world mini barbel rarely get get caught because their diet consists of micro food stuffs, no the best way of introducing barbel to a place they are not indigenous to is to get mature fish from a donor river, you wont need many and let nature do the rest, just like the the few hundred that were stocked into the middle Severn in the 50's, the rest is history.....but I am not suggesting you do that :)
 
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