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Thoughts on Barbel wising up to rigs

Joe Winstanley said:
"....when you're already hitting the vast majority of bites you get..."

Or so you think? Everytime I see underwater footage of barbel feeding I become more and convinced that I'm getting bites that never register at my end and that the hookbait is frequently getting blown out.

And experimenting with rigs and presentation doesn't necessarily equate to using death rigs. I think that's a lazy stereotype about carp angling. And I don't think anyone is advocating the use of zigs for barbel fishing! 🙂
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agree joe after watching underwater footage of barbel spooking off of feeders… i stopped using them i have now substituted feeders with pva mesh
 
i’m not advocating using this rig at all probably wouldn’t be any good for barbel when you listen to the reasons why it is used…
but it’s an interesting insight to the way carp anglers think about rigs and the mechanics of rigs and the reasoning behind them…. interesting stuff

 
Terry Simner said:
I'm totally sold on the idea that if a bait behaves 'naturally' then the chances of success will be greatly increased, and that's why I'm such a great fan of freelining/trundling ... it will catch fish from 'dead' swims. And whilst I've used pop-ups and had some success, in running water (especially) it would seem to be the antithesis of a 'natural presentation. So whilst we may think we're being effective in using a pop-up presentation to reduce bait-ejection, we are using a presentation that is anything but natural ... especially in flowing water (IMO)
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I'm not sure that's the reason why pop-ups work. Do you think a fish will be able to distinguish between a pop-up and otherwise?
 
Reading on here I get the impression that some people think fish are that astute that upon realising they have picked up and been pricked on a baited hook, they try to rid themselves of it. Is that the case?
 
Half of the rigs carp anglers use are to solve the problem that they created in the first place ie mass baiting with particle sized baits that are used all of the time especially with the advent of the spomb again used all of the time. It is interesting to see the increase in catches from two waters I know since they became boilie only waters. Picking up large individual food items and moving to the next will hook fish easier even with the crudest of rigs.

I just think the solution to hooking problematic fish is usually more straightforward ie length of rig, size of hook /bait, baiting patterns /amount and so on. Those solutions are just not as sexy as using certain trending rigs.

Alot of carp rigs do not work in the way people think they do with very few exceptions. One common denominator with most of the successful rigs currently about is using an extension of the hook ala the hinge, choddie, Ronnie etc none of which I find is an asset to hooking Barbel.

I do find Neil's situation very interesting though and follow with interest and an open mind.
 
Damian Kimmins said:
Reading on here I get the impression that some people think fish are that astute that upon realising they have picked up and been pricked on a baited hook, they try to rid themselves of it. Is that the case?
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if you put a boiling hot potato in your mouth do you bite down on it or spit it out ?
 
Terry Simner said:
But only an idiot would change their rig if it was working successfully.
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I disagree.

My view is that you can always build a better mousetrap ! If I fish 2 rods they rarely both have the same set up…..

Change things when you are catching and you learn faster than if you try stuff when you are blanking.
Terry Simner said:
I reckon that carpers are one of the (maybe) two most innovative and 'flexible' (open to change) anglers, the other group being match anglers.
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I agree completely.

Watch videos on match fishing and it’s fascinating how they reckon small things (like changing the type of feeder that they use) can radically affect their catch rate.

I’m currently Stillwater roach fishing and standard specialist tactics aren’t working very well - so I’m scouring the internet for new ‘match’ based approaches……..how to build a swim, pull fish down to the bottom, different groundbaits, even different feeder set ups. I’m learning all the time. And some of it will be transferable to other angling situations at some later date.
 
Ejecting a hot potato is something we've done! How many times do you think a barbel has rid itself of a bare hook that it has taken in? You think it may be likely to sit there on the spot, holding position, but for shaking it's head?
 
Damian Kimmins said:
Ejecting a hot potato is something we've done! How many times do you think a barbel has rid itself of a bare hook that it has taken in? You think it may be likely to sit there on the spot, holding position, but for shaking it's head?
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can almost guarantee that has happened to most of us one time or another many times i’ve struck at a vibrating rod tip and found myself attached to a barbel as for ejecting a bare hook i would say a basic hair rig could be ejected if the mechanics of the rig don’t allow it to turn
 
Terry Harman said:
can almost guarantee that has happened to most of us one time or another many times i’ve struck at a vibrating rod tip and found myself attached to a barbel as for ejecting a bare hook i would say a basic hair rig could be ejected if the mechanics of the rig don’t allow it to turn
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A barbel will ingest a bait and bare hook in a moment surely? In that moment, if the mechanics of the rig do not allow for the hook to prick the lips of the barbel, it will be ejected naturally I would say. Do you really think you'd see that moment represented as a vibrating rod top?
 
Tim Marks said:
Change things when you are catching

it’s fascinating how they reckon small things (like changing the type of feeder that they use) can radically affect their catch rate.

I’m currently Stillwater roach fishing and standard specialist tactics aren’t working very well - so I’m scouring the internet for new ‘match’ based approaches…
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So you're having a great sesh, almost a fish a cast ... but you're thinking "I'll change my rig as this one's so successful" Yes?
I wouldn't describe changing a feeder in a match "a small thing", as changing the speed/amount of feed going into a swim can have massive effect on catch rate.
Re. your roach fishing .. Well yes, you've identified a problem ("tactics aren't working very well") and you look for a solution. But if your tactics were working well and you were catching, would you then change them (just for the sake of change?)

All I'm trying to say is, make sure you do have got a 'problem', and what that problem is, before you look for a solution.
 
As I have said before, My hook point sits immediately above the bait.

If a barbel mouths the bait, I hook it nearly always. If not immediately shown, when the fish moves.


As barbel do not generally see the food they eat
( OK rolling meat and maggots etc are picked up off bottom sometimes)
The keys once locations are correct are surely
Feed type on the day
Rig set ups for river type, flow, pressure on fish..

So there are no specific overall methods to suit the variety of the above.

So I suggest we keep experimenting until we find a method that works Until it doesn't !

Isn't that the joy of angling,

Saying all that, I suppose I use one set up and baiting methods for 90pc of my barbel fishing, happy that it works unless extreme conditions or very low density, pressured fish are the days delights
 
I think there was one instance in that video that showed a fish shaking it's head to rid itself of a hook, it literally bolted at the same time as it slipped the hook. Most cases there I think are baits being ejected naturally through inefficient rigs, but I don't think you'll see that represented as a vibrating rod top. Have you ever picked up a rod that is vibrating, and not struck?
 
Do fish try and rid themselves of the hook? Certainly. I have seen them do it. Those rattles of the quiver tip when roach or chub fishing are often caused by fish that have realised that they are hooked trying to shake it out. I am sure that barbel and carp do the same.

Rig mechanics are sometimes based on carp taking a bait whilst head down then righting itself to move on entailing it hooking itself. But, I have seen carp browsing with their heads down particularly when feeding on natural food or small particles. They might tip and right themselves when feeding on boilies, but not on bloodworm. Barbel also don't always right themselves when feeding, but travel upstream with their head down all the time. I think the bolting that causes the tip to go round happens when the fish has taken a bait and carried on browsing until it gets to the end of the leader, feels the hook and bolts. I get 'barbel' bites from carp when fishing barbel tactics.

Thankfully I have only ever fished on rivers that have had little angling pressure. But any animal is capable of learning from positive and negative experiences and fish that come across the same baits, rigs or even baits in the same location are capable of learning to avoid them. Fortunately I learned that in animal training it can only take one change to break the association with a negative experience. Change of bait, size, colour or scent of the bait, rig, location.......... could be enough to get a wary fish to take your bait.
 
I would posit that a vibrating rod top will not be induced by a fish holding station and trying to rid itself of what it has come to know as a baited hook. I would suggest that it is and are fish that are preoccupied with feeding that have been hooked and that preoccupation has over taken that fear of being caught to the point they fail to recognise they have been hooked.
 
I think it’s worth pointing out, I honestly do not believe the fish feels the hook penetrate, think about tench that pick up a bait and sit there, we’ve all had it. I’ve picked up a motionless rod on numerous occasions to find a Chub hooked. The nerves aren’t there to do that, a fishes mount and a Mammals mouth a very different, a Barbels mount is a gravel sieve not another sensitive tool like ours. In my opinion, It’s the resistance that causes the fish to bolt, that feeling of being pulled or hindered.
The most important parts of a rig is pretty simple, but potentially difficult to achieve. The bait must move/behave as though it’s not swinging off an anchor and the hook must be placed to penetrate the mouth when the bait is ingested.
 
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