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Angling Times otter article

Terry Simner said:
But ... will it ever be possible for large female barbel to co-exist in small to medium sized rivers? Otters will always take the easy option when it comes to satisfying their nutritional needs, and large females (especially around spawning time) will be the proverbial 'sitting ducks'.
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That rather depends on how you define co-exist and is based on factors that currently don’t exist. If we assume co-exist means that the presence of this particular apex predator is not at the expense and deleterious effect of the ecosystem around it, then the following would be my understanding. Currently the situation is removal of 2 barbel could potentially damage the fish stocks over several miles to the point of making them a non viable population. We’ve seen this happen. So the answer is presently no.

For it to be a yes based on the parameter above, you would need a healthy and diverse biomass whereby pressure on individual species is spread and a proper recruitment process. If the barbel population was great enough that a handful of females each year wasn’t a disaster and was maintainable and other more abundant easy meals were also present, such as Eels etc then the impact of an healthy Otter population would be marginal and sustainable. That’s a hell of a lot of ifs though and not the hand we have.

The question as I see it is, how do we get from where we are to where we would like to be. It’s obvious that an Otter cull, certainly with the available evidence would never get any public support or momentum and it’s arguable wether the desired result would be achieved as the fundamental issues that lead to the hand we have haven’t been addressed, perhaps not even fully identified.

In my amateur opinion of corse.
 
Terry Simner said:
I wouldn't describe much of the Trent, or the Thames, as "small to medium sized rivers"
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That's fair comment. But I was thinking of the systems as a whole and their tribs.

But this point about the larger females being sitting targets at spawning time that kind of creates the impression the species is in some sort of evolutionary cul-de-sac e.g. being so reliant on a relatively small percentage of its population to ensure long-term reproductive success.

In a healthy functioning river environment the smaller (leaner?) females that have just reached sexual maturity (7-8 years old?) must make an important contribution to recruitment? Successful recruitment can't just be down to the big old girls?
 
Terry Simner said:
But ... will it ever be possible for large female barbel to co-exist in small to medium sized rivers? Otters will always take the easy option when it comes to satisfying their nutritional needs, and large females (especially around spawning time) will be the proverbial 'sitting ducks'.
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Also consider, although I haven’t researched it myself, I’m told from a reliable source who has, that historical angling literature, makes no mention of Barbel inhabiting smaller rivers and tributaries in the UK? This from a time when Otters were common.

So using the Trent system as an example, were Barbel ever a prolific fish in say the tributary of the Dove, outside of my own life time? I’m sure they’ll cling on in small numbers, as Barbel will venture into the Dove from the Trent.
 
Joe Winstanley said:
That's fair comment. But I was thinking of the systems as a whole and their tribs.

But this point about the larger females being sitting targets at spawning time that kind of creates the impression the species is in some sort of evolutionary cul-de-sac e.g. being so reliant on a relatively small percentage of its population to ensure long-term reproductive success.

In a healthy functioning river environment the smaller (leaner?) females that have just reached sexual maturity (7-8 years old?) must make an important contribution to recruitment? Successful recruitment can't just be down to the big old girls?
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Agree Joe, but I wasn't referring to the "big old girls" so much as the 7-8 year old/ 8-10lb females... the fit and healthy matriarchs of river systems. Barbel will always have been at their most vulnerable when on/immediately below the spawning gravels, and that was prior to the resurgence of the otter population, and without successful spawning then ...
 
Terry Harman said:
avian predation can be controlled to a certain extent with licences being issued... that will never happen with otters.... what i’m struggling to understand is ..if otters aren’t a problem as pete reading and others have said then why are clubs ...syndicate,s... and privately owned waters spending tens of thousands of pounds erecting otter fencing
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Agreed Terry. My local club has fenced all (as far as I'm aware) of its still waters. A lot of resource and effort has been expended. Not just on a whim. What is also noticeable, is that a lot of wild life (with the exception of otters and deer) have appeared. The deer occasionally lurk on the fence perimeters. Thankfully no more obvious fish kills.
 
Stephen Crowhurst said:
Matter of public record that one I believe. The argument from that angle is that none of these introduced Otters survived as they were run over... There have been claims of illegal introductions by private individuals. I don’t know how that stands up to evidence.
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I've said it before on here. But my first sightings of Otters was on the upper Welland in about 1993. I did some research, and they had been introduced by the Otter Trust, near Stamford. The Otter Trust admitted this to me.
The local farmers at first doubted this. Until they started being found dead (road kill) . Mainly near bridges.
 
Neil Blood said:
Also consider, although I haven’t researched it myself, I’m told from a reliable source who has, that historical angling literature, makes no mention of Barbel inhabiting smaller rivers and tributaries in the UK? This from a time when Otters were common.

So using the Trent system as an example, were Barbel ever a prolific fish in say the tributary of the Dove, outside of my own life time? I’m sure they’ll cling on in small numbers, as Barbel will venture into the Dove from the Trent.
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I was just thinking this before reading your post. I'd imagine a lot of the smaller tribs would have been, at one time, faster flowing and full of eels, trout and salmon in the main.
 
Rhys Perry said:
I was just thinking this before reading your post. I'd imagine a lot of the smaller tribs would have been, at one time, faster flowing and full of eels, trout and salmon in the main.
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They would have been stuffed with large scale and coarse woody debris and the occasional beaver dam, lots of natural meanders, pools, riffles with huge lots of variation in flow. They would be completely unrecognisable to our eyes. I think we would struggle to find places to fish safely they would be that snaggy.
 
Joe Winstanley said:
Yes I your right about the Welsh catchment and high proportion of pasture land. Not without issues though, often some of the pastoral areas have the worst issues with pesticides, often because they are applied by users who because they don't use them that often, aren't as professional or competent at applying, storing and disposing of pesticides as their arable counterparts are. One of the many reasons the Teme is failing WFD Good Ecological status is due to to elevated levels of grassland pesticides such as MCPA and Mecoprop.

Then there is the issue of the million or so sheep that all get treated with sheep dips annually. Even with the best husbandry in the world some of it is going to end up in the river...but at least they banned some of the very worst ones a few years back.
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You don't seem to get it Joe, we all know that there are other issues as well as otters, most anglers would be happy to see the odd otters but not the house trained ones that were released into our rivers illegally and will be again.
It isn't exactly natural to see 7 otters together in the middle of the day in the weir next to one of the busiest roads in Bournemouth (Iford bridge).
The releases were all over the country at the same time, Wensum to Bristol Avon, it cannot be natural that all of a sudden they were thriving everywhere, nature doesn't work like that.
At the moment in this area the balance seems reasonable but I'm sure there will be plans being hatched to release more otters.
 
Phil Nixon said:
You don't seem to get it Joe, we all know that there are other issues as well as otters, most anglers would be happy to see the odd otters but not the house trained ones that were released into our rivers illegally and will be again.
It isn't exactly natural to see 7 otters together in the middle of the day in the weir next to one of the busiest roads in Bournemouth (Iford bridge).
The releases were all over the country at the same time, Wensum to Bristol Avon, it cannot be natural that all of a sudden they were thriving everywhere, nature doesn't work like that.
At the moment in this area the balance seems reasonable but I'm sure there will be plans being hatched to release more otters.
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Pleasant as always Phil.

It's pretty clear that no more releases are planned..

And its pretty clear that the ones that were released over a 16 year period were not released illegally.
 
Hi men ,

Not released illegally , but against the advice of the EA , I spoke to them at the time , at the time they were hopping around on the bank of the lakes in that area .

Hatter
 
Phil Nixon said:
You don't seem to get it Joe, we all know that there are other issues as well as otters, most anglers would be happy to see the odd otters but not the house trained ones that were released into our rivers illegally and will be again.
It isn't exactly natural to see 7 otters together in the middle of the day in the weir next to one of the busiest roads in Bournemouth (Iford bridge).
The releases were all over the country at the same time, Wensum to Bristol Avon, it cannot be natural that all of a sudden they were thriving everywhere, nature doesn't work like that.
At the moment in this area the balance seems reasonable but I'm sure there will be plans being hatched to release more otters.
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I'm curious, is there genuine proof that 7 Otters were seen together? We are talking highly territorial animals here, which do not tolerate intruders.

Fights between males can be quite vicious and apparently they go for each others nuts!
 
Mark Anderson said:
Hi men ,

Not released illegally , but against the advice of the EA , I spoke to them at the time , at the time they were hopping around on the bank of the lakes in that area .

Hatter
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Otters or the EA?!

Your dead right though, they weren't happy about it. Nor where many of the Wildlife Trusts. I was a volunteer for my local (Cheshire) Wildlife Trust in the mid-90's on their 'Rivers and Otters Project' which consisted mainly of cray fish trapping, mink control and otter surveys. The people running the project knew that the otters were spreading based on their survey data and that releases were unnecessary.
 
Just remember guys, the EA tell us the reason for the otters successful re-colonisation of various rivers is a key performance indicator for them on how they have cleaned the rivers up and improved the environment, however, others and some of you here are arguing amongst yourselve's and blaming pollution for the barbels demise, so are we saying the rivers are clean enough for otters, but not clean enough for the barbel?
As i have already said its like a self fulfilling prophecy, its a dreadful outcome that awaits us all ...but the evidence is there, an increasing otter population means one thing and that is a declining barbel population, if you think its bad now, just wait till we get back on rivers in June!
 
Lawrence Breakspear said:
Just remember guys, the EA tell us the reason for the otters successful re-colonisation of various rivers is a key performance indicator for them on how they have cleaned the rivers up and improved the environment, however, others and some of you here are arguing amongst yourselve's and blaming pollution for the barbels demise, so are we saying the rivers are clean enough for otters, but not clean enough for the barbel?
As i have already said its like a self fulfilling prophecy, its a dreadful outcome that awaits us all ...but the evidence is there, an increasing otter population means one thing and that is a declining barbel population, if you think its bad now, just wait till we get back on rivers in June!
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'We're all doomed!'
 
How can the otter population increase if they're everywhere already and don't tolerate each other? Populations might ebb and flow but I can't see them increasing by any significant numbers from the level they are now.
 
Lawrence Breakspear said:
Just remember guys, the EA tell us the reason for the otters successful re-colonisation of various rivers is a key performance indicator for them on how they have cleaned the rivers up and improved the environment, however, others and some of you here are arguing amongst yourselve's and blaming pollution for the barbels demise, so are we saying the rivers are clean enough for otters, but not clean enough for the barbel?
As i have already said its like a self fulfilling prophecy, its a dreadful outcome that awaits us all ...but the evidence is there, an increasing otter population means one thing and that is a declining barbel population, if you think its bad now, just wait till we get back on rivers in June!
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The claim of our “Rivers never being cleaner” is a crock though and we know it. The amount of rivers that pass even basic water quality standards is a mere 14% and none passed the chemical check, the EA themselves published this data.

The idea that the recolonisation by a opportunistic mammalian predator has a direct positive correlation to water quality is at best poor science and at worst deliberately misleading.
 
Stephen Crowhurst said:
The claim of our “Rivers never being cleaner” is a crock though and we know it. The amount of rivers that pass even basic water quality standards is a mere 14% and none passed the chemical check, the EA themselves published this data.

The idea that the recolonisation by a opportunistic mammalian predator has a direct positive correlation to water quality is at best poor science and at worst deliberately misleading.
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"Rivers never been cleaner" Who actually claims that? I doubt even the EA would have the nerve to make such an outlandish claim.
 
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