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What's your honest assessment?

Julan there is no doubt that too much oil in a fishes diet can cause problems with the liver etc.especially if it is rancid as it may well be in pellets kept for a long time,this was found in Japan many years ago when they fed fish on a high oil diet.I am not saying Otters are not a problem on some rivers but you commented that you have not seen an Otter on the stretch you fish but there are plenty of Mink there which I always understood were a species Otters would not tolerate and of course an infestation of Mink would explain a lack of waterfowl.This does not explain your lack of fish but it is always a mistake not to give all possibilities a thorough investigation,I know of a couple of rivers where it is claimed barbel have been slaughtered by Otters with little or no sign of them yet reasonable catches occur at times.
 
Otters....most barbel populations are significantly down or completely decimated because of the Otter:

1 The Teme
2 The Severn
3 The Bristol Avon
4 The Dorset Stour
5 The Cherwell
6 The Kennet
7 The Windrush
8 The upper Trent
9 The Warwickshire Avon
10 The Arrow
11 The Wensum
12 The Great Ouse
13 The Medway
14 The Swale
15 The Ribble
16 The Mease
17 The Anchor
18 The Tame
19 The Lugg
20 The Lea
21 The Dove
22 The Derwent
23 The Nene

I am sorry if I have missed your river out, but these are the rivers i know of via friends and contacts that have either lost most of their barbel or are in severe decline because of the Otter, the EA'S response is to stock 100's if not in their 1000's of Calverton bred fish into affected rivers, fingerlings have a 1% to 2% survival rate, so a waste of time, but the EA have listened to us and are now stocking grown on fish around the 2 pound mark in fewer numbers but with a better chance of survival. But alas it is not the answer, the answer is the control of the the Otter and until this is done our beloved rivers and and their barbel will continue to slip into decline, because once the barbel have gone these furry killers then move onto the big chub, as I have said many times its a self fulfilling prophecy.
 
Yep, until barbel look 'cute' they'll have a problem... as asking for otters to be controlled is 'whistling in the wind' I fear.
 
As I've said many times before in other threads about our furry friends, I'm quietly confident about the future of barbel, at least in my local Bristol Avon, because there are still big old fish in there, there's a lot in the 4-5lb range in the upper-middle stretches, and a load of pond size ones coming through.

Like others, I also don't think the otter is solely responsible. I'm not saying they haven't had any impact, but the severe floodings in previous years definitely took a lot out and caused one or two gaps in year classes which has had a knock-on with subsequent spawnings.

Also like others I think a balance will be reached - nature is much better at reaching equilibrium than us humans.
 
But didn’t the BA also receive significant barbel stockings by the E.A, without which you wouldn’t be seeing the small barbel now being caught. The EA are effectively using licence payers money to feed otters. The effectiveness of otters as a predator is greatly affected by flow rates, weed and bank side cover. Low flows and nowhere to hide, results in a virtual total wipeout, and if there are signal crayfish in the river, zero chance of recovery. Any big barbel appearing in the angling weeklies now almost exclusively comes from the Trent or Thames, and I can’t see that changing any time soon. Equilibrium/balance doesn’t necessarily mean healthy numbers of barbel, there’s been a massive shift in the equilibrium in favour of the apex predator, the otter.
 
like anything mathematics do play a part on the effect of barbel populations, so think on this:

Male barbel out number female barbel between 7 and 10 to 1 on most rivers, dependent on the genetics and environment, Female barbel out live male barbel, male barbel live to about 7 years old and reach a maximum size of about 7 to 8 pounds and then they die, a female will live to 20 years plus, ( I wouldn't be suprised if the recent river Thames 20 pounder being 30 years old) a ripe fit female barbel of about 11 or 12 pounds will shed about 20,000 eggs per spawning cycle, so in a stretch of river that has 200 barbel of various sizes only 20 to 25 will be female, whilst we consider a 12 pound barbel to be big and strong, I truly believe that Otters see them as fat and cumbersome and easy prey and often living out solitary lives or in very small groups, without the protection of a shoal until spawning time, so very much an easy kill for the Otter.....when an otter takes a large female (10lb +) barbel we dont just lose a single big fish, we lose the potential of 20,000 fry per annum for the next 10 years or maybe more, so all the females get eaten, whats left are small male barbel and maybe some small none egg producing females, people think yippee the small fish are coming through, then all of a sudden through predation and natrual deaths you get a barbel population crash, very few barbel. Then the EA come along and surreptitiously stock fingerling and slightly grown on barbel, and everyone thinks yippee the barbel are back, trouble is the chub and perch populations have declined because of the decline in barbel, so the ever present and increased numbers of Otters shout Yippee!, the barbel are back and so the cycle continues, but its the end of big barbel fishing as we know it..... I apologise if I seem to be flippant on this very serious subject, I truly think that it's a disgrace and heart breaking, and tragically its coming to a river near you, if not already.
 
Hi Guys,
As children in 1950's we would visit our local ponds to collect frog spawn and transfer it into glass bowls so that we could watch the development of the tadpoles ( no telly in those days chaps ). The local ponds were heaving with frogs and toads and their spawn. Nowadays these same ponds are empty. I don't think that we can blame Otters for this mass extermination. The point I am trying to make is that there has been a significant change in the aquatic ecology. I would think that it is likely that farming pesticides have been washed into the rivers and ponds and damaged this environment.
Regards,
G.T.
 
Agree Lawrence. People talk about a natural balance being reached, which they assume to involve healthy numbers of fish and some otters, but we’re virtually 10 years on from the devastation of certain barbel rivers and there are NO signs of any recovery. IMO, certain rivers will never again hold healthy numbers of barbel, simply because in their current state they cannot cope with the presence of otters. The Ouse, Loddon and Kennet all have signal crayfish so their hopes of a natural recovery are zero. Even after massive restocking of the Ouse by the E.A., there’s been no recovery whatsoever. Small rivers like the Wensum are just too easy to clear out in summer when the fish are all held up in the deeper water. It’s a no contest. Over abstraction has tilted the battle massively in favour of the otter. It’s like going from trying escape Mike Tyson in a nightclub to trying to escape from him in a cell. Going forwards, if you want to catch barbel, it’s the big rivers or bust. Sad.
 
Just about every living thing other than man is in decline Graham, don’t think there’s much doubt about that. About the only other living things that are prospering are the animals that thrive on human waste, such as rats. The way we treat the planet, it would be apt that we spend our last days in their company.
 
Graham Elliott said:
The Trent is amazing.

Then again the EA have put in over 50, 000 barbel over the years
Click to expand...

Hi Graham, believe it or believe it not....the Trent and its tributaries are in severe decline, many stretches on the middle and upper Trent have been given up because of declining barbel numbers areas around Rugeley have been well and truly "Ottered", though those barbel living in the tidal areas seem to fare better, perhaps the tidal and brackish conditions don't suit Lutra lutra. The Trent system, i.e. the Dove, The Derwent etc. have had more 100k barbel stocked from Calverton, otters now are now appearing on the lower reaches. Its a myth to believe that barbel are safer in big deep rivers, perhaps for 4 or 5 months of the year they might be, but once the big females start moving towards the smaller males on the spawning sites i.e. Weirs, smaller tributaries, upstream shallows, carnage takes place as the barbel start to become very vulnerable to the marauding Otter, a typical example of this is the lower Severn where barbel move up to either Diglis weir or the Teme, barbel numbers on the lower Severn have fallen considerably because of this. Barbel now, in many cases are identified by the Otter damage to them, tail damage, claw marks and fin damage.
 
Lol.
Yet roach dace etc. Are making a fantastic comeback.

But I accept the damage continually being done by Otters is a real problem.
I highlighted it many moons ago as a frequent Kennet angler. Many disputed it.

But Lol, one has to accept, the toothless or unsupporting powers that be will Never change their stance and although the BS strives to inform, in reality unless it can get the AT to genuinely move into action nothing is going to change.

However, I can remember when the capture of an uncatchable barbel on the rivers over 10lb was big news circa 1965.

We have had it very good for a number of years.


The Wye has been full of 1-2lb barbel in the last couple of years so not all negative.

Their are many other aspects that are affecting the rivers ability to enable barbel to spawn and thrive.

If the Close season is lifted then this will be another nail in the coffin for barbel.
The BS needs to get back to its founding basics and fight that battle....again. Fred would turn in his grave ( although Theresa may be a bit busy at the moment to accept a petition again)

By the way. Although seen a couple of pictures, not seen one barbel with tail etc. damage from the Severn this year.

Anyway, caught a few barbel but enjoying the roach dace perch chub revival.

Cheers
 
Nick.
Of course it is. As the population increases along with the associated pollution and intensive farming the land and habitat for wildlife decreases.

Nothing can be done to change that.


But we have to make the best out of it along with as much protection as possible.

Sometimes I am glad I'm a '50s boy.
 
Graham Elliott said:
Nick.
Of course it is. As the population increases along with the associated pollution and intensive farming the land and habitat for wildlife decreases.

Nothing can be done to change that.


But we have to make the best out of it along with as much protection as possible.

Sometimes I am glad I'm a '50s boy.
Click to expand...


Gra,

first thing I must say is that whatever I say here are purely my own personal views and not how the Barbel society sees things, though on predation i must say there is a consensus within the BS that we have a major problem, hence the BS's support for the PAG, also I must state is that the BS does not have an official opinion on the close season, we have left this to our membership to arrive at their own view, within the 700 plus membership of the BS, the membership will have differing individual opinions, including the committee, and we respect this.

We have noticed various other species doing well as you say in the midst of the decline in barbel numbers, the same river, the same water quality, the same environment, however Barbel decline, but roach, dace, perch and chub appear to thrive, so that tells me that it isn't a water problem, those species that do well are very much shoal species regardless of size and I dont think Otters like taking fish from a shoal as its too confusing and to much hard work and a limited return for them, they much prefer big slow fish like big barbel, Carp Pike and zander, but once those big barbel have gone or significantly reduced in numbers, the big chub are the next to get hit, on the lower Severn the has been a noticeable decline in big Zander and pike as with the barbel, its a complicated picture for sure, with the short term benefits of big Roach and Dace for the angler.
 
Thanks Lol.

The BS were always very strong supporters of the Close Season.
One of the guiding principals.

I believe that holding that and promoting that as a Key area may in fact gain you enough members to get back to numbers approaching the 1200 or so that once supported the BS. Accepting there may be some leavers.

Otters. Yes a big problem.
Can't disagree. But other areas you may have more success with.

Love your passion Lawrence and realise you speak for yourself in posts.
 
Graham Elliott said:
Thanks Lol.

The BS were always very strong supporters of the Close Season.
One of the guiding principals.

I believe that holding that and promoting that as a Key area may in fact gain you enough members to get back to numbers approaching the 1200 or so that once supported the BS. Accepting there may be some leavers.

Otters. Yes a big problem.
Can't disagree. But other areas you may have more success with.

Love your passion Lawrence and realise you speak for yourself in posts.
Click to expand...

Cheers Graham...
That coming from you means a lot to me..
 
Yes G, remove the barbel and the roach and dace etc will prosper. On my small local river, where otters were first released over 10 years ago, the chub are in terminal decline ( few big fish left, no small ones) because the otters have taken most of the broodstock and the few remaining fail to effectively reproduce due to egg predation by signal crayfish. The river is, however, alive with roach. I think you’re right, being born in the 50’s is best.
Agree Lol, the larger rivers are not immune to the effects of otters, the Trent is definitely in decline imo, which is precisely why I intend to put some serious hours in over the next few seasons.
 
I do think anglers are inclined to be convinced that something ts a fact and not look more deeply at the problem,for instance years ago when Zander (then called Pike-perch) started to appear widely in rivers the angling papers were full of comments that silver fish were doomed yet it seems they were not. I have never claimed nor could I claim to be a good angler but I have always refused to be sidetracked by the generally accepted ideas many of which had persisted for years.Soon after taking up fishing I saw a carp in a lake and became determined to catch one and set out to make a bait to do just that,ignoring my angling workmates ridicule,I was then told carp hibernated in winter which turned out to be wrong.Later in the early eighties the opportunity came to fish for barbel and a good friend and very capable barbel angler told me not to waste my time fishing for them in winter,today we know the biggest barbel tend to be caught in winter.I always advise my friends if you have an idea don't just look for things to prove it correct but try your hardest to disprove it then whatever you are left with is a fact and this you can work with.Otters eat fish certainly that is a fact,but surely they they do not solely eat barbel to the exclusion of other fish,so surely if barbel in your river are fewer and other species are not in decline then Otters are not the only cause of the problem.
 
To be fair Fred, yes there were some anglers predicting the end of silverfish fishing on venues where zander were introduced, but in this case Its not conjecture, it’s actually happened, on a huge number of rivers up and down the country, and is a work in progress on the rest. Coincidence ? Not for me. I don’t think anyone is saying otters are the only problem, far, far from it.
 
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