What the hell is wrong with people 😡😡

[Nick Horton]

Birds of prey have fascinated me since I was a kid and went to see 'Kes' at the pictures. We have a nesting pair of Ospreys not far from where I live but it's a rare treat to see them. Here's a photo of my youngest with 'Kayla' at Eagle Heights in Kent. Sadly she's passed away. This is the bald eagle mascot of Crystal Palace FC and she has also featured in an advert for Yves St Laurent. If you've never handled a hawk treat yourself to an experience day. Take a camera if you do!

Nick

 

[Stephen Goderski]

Many years ago I used to take clients for a days hawking, with Harris Hawks. The days would comprise half a day in woodland, hunting pheasants, and half a day in the fields, hunting rabbits. The days were absolutely magical and if you ever get the chance, I would unreservedly recommend it.

 

[Ian Woods]

Peregrine's don't leave a clutch of three eggs unattended. They might leave two unattended and start incubating when the third is laid, but they will still be close by, to deter predators.

Crows etc. may 'express and interest', but none of those birds would risk injury by picking a serious fight with a nesting Peregrine.
.

Really, forgive me Kevin, I only kept, flown and bred birds of prey for many years along with a group of my friends. We had quite a few different species between us.

Seriously, don't belive everything you read on google etc.

 

[Kevin Steele]

Really, forgive me Kevin, I only kept, flown and bred birds of prey for many years along with a group of my friends. We had quite a few different species between us.

Seriously, don't belive everything you read on google etc.

I've been an RSPB member since I was ten... well before Google was even dreamt of.

You may know a lot about captive birds, Ian, but your post gave the impression that you know very little about the behaviour of WILD birds. I can only go on what you wrote.
.

 

[Ian Woods]

I've been an RSPB member since I was ten... well before Google. Your comment was a touch patronising.

You may know a lot about captive birds, Ian, but your post gave the impression that you know very little about the behaviour of WILD birds. I can only go on what you wrote.
.

RSPB member ...oh well if thats the case i'll zip it then .

 

[Ian Woods]

In my experience, they have a real deep hatred of both urban Peregrines and Sparrowhawks, which constantly spook and occasionally take their prized pigeons.

Needless to say their replies didn’t go down well with the 99.9% of local non-pigeon fanciers.

Raptor persecution is still a huge issue in the UK, just look what happened to the Hen Harrier on or near driven grouse moors. You also struggle to find any Peregrines on or near driven grouse moors, but apparently that’s ok as urban Peregrines typically do well

Only just clocked this Neil, the above kind'a reminds me of the attitude of many anglers towards otters, cormorants, herons etc etc.

I think the majority of anglers appear to want to kill anything that poses a threat to a fish, but same as the peregines those fish eating predators are only trying to survive.

 

[Kevin Steele]

RSPB member ...oh well if thats the case i'll zip it then .

That might have been wise from the start, given that you commented without even reading the original link.
.

 

[Stephen Crowhurst]

That’s one of my biggest frustrations, if we properly taught environmental studies in schools, covering human impacts, land use, food production, energy, nature……. we’d live in a far better country, where people actually cared about and considered their own impact on the environment. You could change mindsets in a generation!

Why would you not want to teach kids about the differences between red admiral and peacock butterflies; stoats and weasels; song thrushes and mistle thrushes; oak trees and ash trees; and of course barbel and chub Kids love this kind of stuff, so sow the seed early.

Clearly it’s considered to be far too political FFS!

Mine do. They have a subject, I suppose you could call it which they refer to as Forest School. They go outside, do all the stuff they should, building dens and learning about Trees etc. I did this with them anyway but obviously not all parents do. They absolutely love it.

 

[Neil Blood]

Only just clocked this Neil, the above kind'a reminds me of the attitude of many anglers towards otters, cormorants, herons etc etc.

I think the majority of anglers appear to want to kill anything that poses a threat to a fish, but same as the peregines those fish eating predators are only trying to survive.

You could make a comparison re anglers who want to control Otters and Pigeon Fanciers who want to control Peregrines and Sparrowhawks. Personally I’m 100% against Otter control as like urban Peregrines its a protected species and a conservation success story. Any attempt to change the law for either example would bring fury from the wider general public.

Otters are the tip of the iceberg for me and they bring to light the state of many of our rivers. In some cases, overall lack of fish means a river cannot support the Otter territory , so it raids nearby Carp lakes and even ornamental fish ponds for food!

I have no problem with legal predator control, which is backed up by good science, such as:

- Deer control to improve woodland regeneration. Plus they have no predators in the UK.
- Fox/Corvid Control to protect vulnerable and threatened ground nesting birds of conservation concern e.g. Curlews.
- Non-native American Mink control to save Water Voles and other native wildlife.
- Canada Goose control for public health and water quality issues i.e non-native species crapping everywhere. Plus they completely overgraze fringe weed growth on lakes.

Similar with Cormorants, the problems started when non-native Sinensis Cormorants arrived from the continent several decades back and steadily increased in number. It got to the point where whole inland fisheries were being decimated, so NE brought in a licensing system where they can be shot in small numbers as an aid to scaring. As an example the area licence covering the Ribble is extremely successful and is one reason, why the fish stocks are considered healthy.

The likes of the RSPB, Wildlife Trusts, Woodland Trust and other conservation charities, don't currently object to any of the above legal predator control examples; in fact they actually use some of them.

 

[Jim Brook]

Mine do. They have a subject, I suppose you could call it which they refer to as Forest School. They go outside, do all the stuff they should, building dens and learning about Trees etc. I did this with them anyway but obviously not all parents do. They absolutely love it.

Yes my daughter did something similar at primary school but that’s where it stopped with it being a school thing, she was trotting a stick float with center pin and caught roach and perch at age 7, but as soon as high school came along all that stopped in favour of online gaming and mobile phones, she still appreciates nature but is now scared of creepy crawlies, it would be great if the “the nature” was a secondary school subject along with the effects of the Second World War, etc then as adults they would be more thoughtful and considerate of there surroundings and the people within it.

 

[Jim Brook]

I personally have no problem with using control measures for any animal whether it be bird or mammal etc, as long as the correct feasibility and impact studies are carried out, what we should remember with “re wilding” is that as Homo sapiens we are animals too, just not as clever as we think we are?

 

[Jim Brook]

Neil makes an interesting point about Otters bringing attention to the state of our rivers, and I don’t know if it’s still the case but if you found a dead otter you was ment to report it to the EA and then it would be collected and sent to Cardiff University for analysis where they would cut open its liver and check for toxins and heavy metals etc, which would suggest to me? The stocking of barbel and the re introduction of otters to be “ Canary” species? And go hand in hand as a surreptitious way of finding out what is locked in the gravels of our water ways?

 

[Jim Brook]

I’ll get my Tim helmet on now!

 

[Joe Winstanley]

Natural history should be a GCSE
what we should remember with “re wilding” is that as Homo sapiens we are animals too, just not as clever as we think we are?

That's the whole point of 'rewilding' in its true sense. Moving away from reductionist conservation management plans and allowing natural ecological processes to develop. Rather than having a fixed plan of what a habitat / landscape should look like, the species it should contain and support and the management that should be implemented, rewilding (in it's true sense) is about restoring natural components of the landscape (such as herbivores and predators) and letting nature take it's course regardless of how that conflicts with the human perception of what should or should not be there.

 

[Jim Brook]

Natural history should be a GCSE
what we should remember with “re wilding” is that as Homo sapiens we are animals too, just not as clever as we think we are?

That's the whole point of 'rewilding' in its true sense. Moving away from reductionist conservation management plans and allowing natural ecological processes to develop. Rather than having a fixed plan of what a habitat / landscape should look like, the species it should contain and support and the management that should be implemented, rewilding (in it's true sense) is about restoring natural components of the landscape (such as herbivores and predators) and letting nature take it's course regardless of how that conflicts with the human perception of what should or should not be there.

Joe isn’t “ re wilding “ in that context an impossible pipe dream? As we homo Saipan’s (animals) have been managing and controlling our environments for thousands of years, the problem is that we think that we are the cleverest animals on the planet? Therefore we are doomed to fail

 

[Jim Brook]

I personally think that we should be preserving what we still have left? Before reintroducing what has been lost? and we should be trying our utmost to “manage” things better for the future generations to come, I feel that in most cases re wilding to be a smoke screen for our past and current failures?

 

[Joe Winstanley]

I personally think that we should be preserving what we still have left? Before reintroducing what has been lost? and we should be trying our utmost to “manage” things better for the future generations to come, I feel that in most cases re wilding to be a smoke screen for our past and current failures?

Well we haven't done a very good job at conservation since WW2. In fact the evidence suggests it has been complete and utter failure.

Rewilding isn't necessarily about reintroducing species either, it's much more about losing that fixed mindsight regarding supposed objectives. We spend billions in the UK on cutting, burning, felling and controlled grazing on conservation sites through prescribed management plans which are focused on narrow objectives etc. It's just not working on the whole.

Have a look at what has been done at Knepp through a minimalist 'naturalistic grazing' policy. It's really quite amazing.

 

[Neil Blood]

Well we haven't done a very good job at conservation since WW2. In fact the evidence suggests it has been complete and utter failure.

Rewilding isn't necessarily about reintroducing species either, it's much more about losing that fixed mindsight regarding supposed objectives. We spend billions in the UK on cutting, burning, felling and controlled grazing on conservation sites through prescribed management plans which are focused on narrow objectives etc. It's just not working on the whole.

Have a look at what has been done at Knepp through a minimalist 'naturalistic grazing' policy. It's really quite amazing.

Knepp is incredible, 92% decline in Nightingales nationally and they went from zero pairs to 40+ pairs on the estate!

 

[Jim Brook]

Joe, I do live in hope that as a species we can learn from our past? And change our approach and attitudes towards our future? But I’m afraid I am also more than a little pessimistic of our fellow man.

 

[Ian Woods]

You could make a comparison re anglers who want to control Otters and Pigeon Fanciers who want to control Peregrines and Sparrowhawks. Personally I’m 100% against Otter control as like urban Peregrines its a protected species and a conservation success story. Any attempt to change the law for either example would bring fury from the wider general public.

Otters are the tip of the iceberg for me and they bring to light the state of many of our rivers. In some cases, overall lack of fish means a river cannot support the Otter territory , so it raids nearby Carp lakes and even ornamental fish ponds for food!

I have no problem with legal predator control, which is backed up by good science, such as:

- Deer control to improve woodland regeneration. Plus they have no predators in the UK.
- Fox/Corvid Control to protect vulnerable and threatened ground nesting birds of conservation concern e.g. Curlews.
- Non-native American Mink control to save Water Voles and other native wildlife.
- Canada Goose control for public health and water quality issues i.e non-native species crapping everywhere. Plus they completely overgraze fringe weed growth on lakes.

Similar with Cormorants, the problems started when non-native Sinensis Cormorants arrived from the continent several decades back and steadily increased in number. It got to the point where whole inland fisheries were being decimated, so NE brought in a licensing system where they can be shot in small numbers as an aid to scaring. As an example the area licence covering the Ribble is extremely successful and is one reason, why the fish stocks are considered healthy.

The likes of the RSPB, Wildlife Trusts, Woodland Trust and other conservation charities, don't currently object to any of the above legal predator control examples; in fact they actually use some of them.

Neil, many years back when I keepered "Anything" that dared look sideways at a gamebird was eliminated, be it fur or feather. I know of keepers today who still have that old mindset.

As a young kid on the ribble I used to see rows of cormorants lined up across from ribchester front with their wings opened out and held up to dry them after feeding, so they were there in much greater numbers way back when. The otters were also present back then and had never been absent as far as i'm aware. At that time barbel were pretty much unheard of in the ribble and were a kind of urban myth. If I remember rightly I caught my first one about the early to mid 80s which was only about 8 inches long. On that day there was a group of us fishing and everyone came over for a look at the mythical fish lol.
So that kinda indicated that neither the corm's nor the otters did any noticeable damage to the fish numbers.
That was before the barbel had a chance to take hold and explode in numbers. After the barbel explosion the the fish population had a drastic change, the silverfish dropped right down as did the salmon!
I think the sheer number of what was in reality a larger invasive species of fish which must have devoured so much of the natural food and also the spawn of resident fish species that they just couldn't compete, and so their number dropped drastically.....obviously due to the corms .
I'd say after the peak of the barbel explosion and the older fish started to die off, which was probably about 12 or more years back that the silver fish made a huge comeback.
People needed another scape goat for the barbel slump and it was now the otters turn .

So atm there is a more even keel between the barbel numbers and the other species.
However, I think the salmon have little to no chance of recovery in the presence of barbel.
IMO, another factor that plays a huge part in fish recruitment is the weather, floods etc.
At this time of year people always moan about low levels etc and how these conditions are detrimental to fish. They don't realise that the low levels increase weed growth, insect, etc etc and the fry are able to thrive in those conditions. I think we've had several years of quite decent recruitment years these last few years, but previous to that we had few years worth of high water levels during the peek breeding seasons which must have decimated the fry. Obviously that will cause lean years of recruitment which is just a natural occurance and not a result of predators which i'm sure you will know are going to be the first to feel the brunt of any lack of food, and also the first to be blamed for the lack of fish to catch.

So, the above is my own thoughts and opinions, others will disagree.