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The state of our rivers

I am taking part in a water quality survey from 18 sites around Oxford which started in April 2021 and will finish in Dec 2021. Rivers included in the survey are Thames, Windrush, Evenlode, Cherwell, Ray and other small streams that flow into these. This survey is the biggest so far in the UK. So far the results have been pretty shocking as to the state of the water quality, showing x4 to x 6 times the the amount of phosphate that would be expected ( basically sewage). The water is tested for both chemicals and ecoli and it has been advised that people should not swim in the rivers for 48hrs after heavy rain because if you swallow as little as 50ml you could become seriously ill. It is nothing short of criminality what they are doing to our rivers. The once crystal clear Windrush is now basically an open sewer for example.
 
Paul Cooper said:
I am taking part in a water quality survey from 18 sites around Oxford which started in April 2021 and will finish in Dec 2021. Rivers included in the survey are Thames, Windrush, Evenlode, Cherwell, Ray and other small streams that flow into these. This survey is the biggest so far in the UK. So far the results have been pretty shocking as to the state of the water quality, showing x4 to x 6 times the the amount of phosphate that would be expected ( basically sewage). The water is tested for both chemicals and ecoli and it has been advised that people should not swim in the rivers for 48hrs after heavy rain because if you swallow as little as 50ml you could become seriously ill. It is nothing short of criminality what they are doing to our rivers. The once crystal clear Windrush is now basically an open sewer for example.
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Are there crays in the river, if so they'll colour the river up with all their burrowing and excrement, just like they do on the Ouse. Which also used to run crystal up to 12 years ago.
 
Chris Guy said:
Are there crays in the river, if so they'll colour the river up with all their burrowing and excrement, just like they do on the Ouse. Which also used to run crystal up to 12 years ago.
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The signal crays were so bad a few years ago it was almost impossible to fish. There are not so many now, could be coincidence that the water quality is not as good now.
 
Something which often gets mentioned when returning our utilities to public ownership is mentioned, is that things weren’t so great in the 70’s before privatisation. Agreed, they weren’t, but what is the relevance of that comment ? Public ownership of utilities works extremely well in many European countries, right now. That’s surely more relevant. Another gripe I have is that many think the EU is the great custodian and protector of the environment when it currently overseas the continued deafforestation of central and Eastern Europe, has brought fish stocks in its waters to virtual collapse and indirectly promotes the deafforestation of the Amazon rain forest through its importation of soy for animal feed supplied to publicly subsidised EU farmers. EU agricultural subsidies are the reason Europe is drowning in manure, and a total overhaul is desperately needed. Unregulated capitalism is speeding up the end of the world and yet very few seem to be that bothered. Anyway must go, got 8 hours of PlayStation, YouTube and Netflix to digest.
 
Paul Cooper said:
The signal crays were so bad a few years ago it was almost impossible to fish. There are not so many now, could be coincidence that the water quality is not as good now.
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Same on the Ouse and Ivel, though the Ivel is a little clearer. Some blame the murkiness on the crays but, I'm not in that boat, as they certainly aren't anywhere as common as they were 10 years ago. Personally, I put it down to the shit water quality.
 
Nick Coulthurst said:
Something which often gets mentioned when returning our utilities to public ownership is mentioned, is that things weren’t so great in the 70’s before privatisation. Agreed, they weren’t, but what is the relevance of that comment ? Public ownership of utilities works extremely well in many European countries, right now. That’s surely more relevant. Another gripe I have is that many think the EU is the great custodian and protector of the environment when it currently overseas the continued deafforestation of central and Eastern Europe, has brought fish stocks in its waters to virtual collapse and indirectly promotes the deafforestation of the Amazon rain forest through its importation of soy for animal feed supplied to publicly subsidised EU farmers. EU agricultural subsidies are the reason Europe is drowning in manure, and a total overhaul is desperately needed. Unregulated capitalism is speeding up the end of the world and yet very few seem to be that bothered. Anyway must go, got 8 hours of PlayStation, YouTube and Netflix to digest.
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Much truth in what you say Nick and there is often a tendency for some of the EU's worst aspects such as fisheries to be overlooked.

Regarding farm subsidies, it should be noted that the link between production and agriculture subsidies was decoupled back in 2004. Since then within the EU farmers/landowners have been given subsidy payments simply by virtue of having land. There is no obligation to farm it other than to prevent the land turning into scrub. A quick drive around with a pasture topper every 3-4 years is pretty much the basic requirement. The days of 'intervention' grain mountains are long gone.

It should also be recognised that the intensive pig and poultry industries across Europe are competently unsubsidised and always have been. Much of this is exported to China, but the UK/EU taxpayer picks up the tab of the 'externalised' environmental cost. The current state of the Wye being a good example.

When the UK left the EU there was much rejoicing amongst environmentalists in the EU, as the UK was consistently seen as a hindrance to environmental reforms and would use its power of veto over proposals such as 'greening' the CAP and important measures for soil and water protection such as the European Soil Framework Directive. Having spent much time looking at the way other EU countries (such as Ireland, Denmark, Netherlands, Germany) have implemented anti-farm pollution regulations such as the Nitrates Directive there is little doubt, and has been for for several decades these Governments are light years ahead of our own. It will be interesting to see where things go from here.
 
How long will it be until the EA or water companies are obliged to put up public notices at popular swimming and recreation areas on our rivers, warning people of the poor water of the water quality and the presence of e-coli, which may upset your stomach? To cover their arses. (pun intended)
 
Chris Guy said:
How long will it be until the EA or water companies are obliged to put up public notices at popular swimming and recreation areas on our rivers, warning people of the poor water of the water quality and the presence of e-coli, which may upset your stomach? To cover their arses. (pun intended)
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Are they not obliged by law to do this anyway? But the reason they don't is because they deny the problem exists..
 
Subsidies based on acreage Joe are a problem in themselves and have led to the emergence of a small number of large corporate agri businesses with huge lobbying budgets, which suck up a disproportionate amount of the subsidies available, when they are the ones least in need of them. We’re basically subsiding the rich, yet again ! I know changes to the CAP are due to be brought in 2023, but will things really improve ? The system has also been hugely abused in many Eastern European nations with the state ‘selling’ land to political supporters, friends, and relatives, which then qualify for huge subsidies distributed by the state. Democracy is being undermined, the oligarchs are getting richer and the EU has done nothing. I don’t think leaving the EU will lead to better standards in the UK whilst the current government is in power, but at least when we finally wake up (if we ever do) we will have the ability to make changes for the better.
 
Nick Coulthurst said:
Subsidies based on acreage Joe are a problem in themselves and have led to the emergence of a small number of large corporate agri businesses with huge lobbying budgets, which suck up a disproportionate amount of the subsidies available, when they are the ones least in need of them. We’re basically subsiding the rich, yet again ! I know changes to the CAP are due to be brought in 2023, but will things really improve ? The system has also been hugely abused in many Eastern European nations with the state ‘selling’ land to political supporters, friends, and relatives, which then qualify for huge subsidies distributed by the state. Democracy is being undermined, the oligarchs are getting richer and the EU has done nothing. I don’t think leaving the EU will lead to better standards in the UK whilst the current government is in power, but at least when we finally wake up (if we ever do) we will have the ability to make changes for the better.
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I don't disagree Nick. There have been a number of proposals to cap payments, but these were voted down by the UK Govt. Being paid simply by virtue of owning or renting land is nothing other than a form of regressive taxation.

The UK has decided that decoupled payments (or BPS as its known) is to be incrementally phased out, and from 2024 farm payments will be based on farmers providing 'public goods' such as carbon storage, water quality improvements, biodiversity, public access etc. Sounds good, but the net winners set to be the treasury will be trousering a larger rebate than the money that will be spent on rewarding farmers for 'public goods'. The fundamental problem as I see it, is the the EU, US etc aren't following suit, so our farmers will be expected to produce commodities for a global market, but will receive less net-farm income then their overseas counterparts. So farmers will need be bring down unit costs by scaling up production. I think we will see widespread consolidation of farm businesses with the smaller scale family farms, that are often better at providing public goods but less efficient due to scale, being replaced by larger agri-businesses. Classic example of the law of unintended consequences.
 
You've pretty much nailed it there Joe. I work in the industry and we are already ramping up to cater for larger agri businesses.
How it will all work with phasing out subsidies remains to be seen. We the public effectively buy food from the supermarkets at round about cost price. The subsidies keep the small to medium producers going. Like him or loath him, Clarkson's Farm was bang on the money in bringing the harsh reality of food production to the masses.
It's obvious how this is going to affect our rivers. The larger businesses will need to intensively farm the land to produce maximum yields to generate profit. Despite the pitiful efforts from the government over muck spreading, neonics, abstraction and margins, the run off and overall effect on our drained rivers is inevitable.
When the massive agri businesses decide that the UK isn't suitable for production and grow produce abroad, we'll become more reliant on imports and we'll have even more tarmac and concrete encroaching on the land. The green folk will plant some trees and have some scrubland but the ambassadors of the countryside will be long gone and it will be a downward spiral.
It's heartbreaking. But capitalism will prevail until we wipe ourselves out.
 
Plus climate change, which is going to be the issue going forward - I know it is already, but those in power have not yet grasped this. How long before start to experince large fires on the grouse moors and the possibility of pyrocumulonimbus storms which will bring flooding the likes of which we have not seen. Sounds like science fiction but Europe experienced its first such storm in Portugal this year & Australia had 35 in 2020. The future is not looking too rosy - we need to make the best of it while we can...so I am off to battle the canoes, paddle boarders and wild swimmers on the Wye and hopefully catch a fish or two.
 
Paul Cooper said:
I am taking part in a water quality survey from 18 sites around Oxford which started in April 2021 and will finish in Dec 2021. Rivers included in the survey are Thames, Windrush, Evenlode, Cherwell, Ray and other small streams that flow into these. This survey is the biggest so far in the UK. So far the results have been pretty shocking as to the state of the water quality, showing x4 to x 6 times the the amount of phosphate that would be expected ( basically sewage). The water is tested for both chemicals and ecoli and it has been advised that people should not swim in the rivers for 48hrs after heavy rain because if you swallow as little as 50ml you could become seriously ill. It is nothing short of criminality what they are doing to our rivers. The once crystal clear Windrush is now basically an open sewer for example.
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Hi Paul, sorry missed this post when I was away, are you doing silt samples or swishing up silt when taking your samples. The EA do water samples on my stretch and only do the flowing water. After recently moving some silt with a pole saw to show the HS2 protesters how bad the river is they were all gagging with the smell of Sewage. Our water tests ok but I fear the solids that create the silt that lie on the river bed are the major long term problem. A lad I did a Fishery management course with tested silt upstream and it was so bad he will never let his dog in the river again. Persistent Organic pollutants banned 20 years ago and Carcinogens were in such high levels.
 
Mark Swaby said:
Hi Paul, sorry missed this post when I was away, are you doing silt samples or swishing up silt when taking your samples. The EA do water samples on my stretch and only do the flowing water. After recently moving some silt with a pole saw to show the HS2 protesters how bad the river is they were all gagging with the smell of Sewage. Our water tests ok but I fear the solids that create the silt that lie on the river bed are the major long term problem. A lad I did a Fishery management course with tested silt upstream and it was so bad he will never let his dog in the river again. Persistent Organic pollutants banned 20 years ago and Carcinogens were in such high levels.
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No we are testing for bacteria chemicals and e coli. The results so far have shown levels 4x to 6x higher than expected. So all the rivers tested are not in a very healthy state.
Mark Swaby said:
Hi Paul, sorry missed this post when I was away, are you doing silt samples or swishing up silt when taking your samples. The EA do water samples on my stretch and only do the flowing water. After recently moving some silt with a pole saw to show the HS2 protesters how bad the river is they were all gagging with the smell of Sewage. Our water tests ok but I fear the solids that create the silt that lie on the river bed are the major long term problem. A lad I did a Fishery management course with tested silt upstream and it was so bad he will never let his dog in the river again. Persistent Organic pollutants banned 20 years ago and Carcinogens were in such high levels.
Click to expand...
 
Chris Guy said:
Same on the Ouse and Ivel, though the Ivel is a little clearer. Some blame the murkiness on the crays but, I'm not in that boat, as they certainly aren't anywhere as common as they were 10 years ago. Personally, I put it down to the shit water quality.
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Lots of raw sewage going into the rivers especially after heavy rain and people are advised not to swim for 48hrs after heavy rain because if as little as 50ml are swallowed you could become seriously ill
 
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