The Great Rod Divide(?)

[Steve Lewis]

So, back when I first started fishing in the early 90s, carbon was the standard rod material, and you did very much get what you paid for – the difference between a £20 Kingfisher float rod from Argos and a £200 equivalent Normark (just to use two well known obvious extremes) was marked, and the leap in quality to the Normark justified every single one of those pennies in that £200. And that was pretty much the case right across the board, even if you were looking at a much narrower price point between, say, a £30 DAM/Leeda and a £60 Shimano.

By the time of my sabbatical in the early 00s, rod technology, carbon availability and average quality of rod sundries (eyes, whipping, reel seats etc) had got to a point where the difference between the top and the bottom (or, at least, the top and the middle) was quite often only reflected in price difference. Being a fan of the John Wilson Masterline range (pre the Ideal/XL/Debut series, and the change to Jarvis Walker and Rovex) of rods (and I’m still using them now), I was regularly surprised at how well these medium priced rods compared to much more expensive equivalents, even being better in some cases than rods that had an asking price two or three times as much (to use one example, the 9 and 10ft stalking/Wanderer rods were infinitely better than most other available equivalents, despite typically being a fraction of the price).

As some of you know, I only re-joined the angling community last year (life “got in the way†for a good few years) and, aside from the tackle I already had accrued in the 90s, the only new rods I’ve bought were old stock items that stopped being made a few years ago. Everything else I’ve picked up this last year has been 10 to 20 year old rods from eBay. In other words, I have no idea what the current range of rods is like.

All of which is quite a long pre-amble to these questions and the reason for this thread – is there still a quality divide at all? Ignoring handle materials (I know most of us like our full cork), is a £15 no-name rod from China going to perform admirably against a similar £100 Drennan? And, looks aside, are there any rods out there which really justify their high-end price tag?

Not that I’m looking to start buying el-cheapo rods, or completely ignore anything coming out now. I’m just curious as to the current state of rods in general.

 

[Barry Garwood]

Hello Steve, I too can remember the Normark rods being far superior to anything on the market, I had a Normark marco medallion rod back in the day a lovely rod and one of only a few on the market that didnt have a "flat spot" the cheaper rods invariably had those flat spots in the blanks, nowadays the difference between cheapies and mid range rods are hardly noticeable, but when you get into the top end rods the difference is still marked, the feel and weight of the top end rods are much better along with the fittings of course, although there are some great rods out there for what is really small money compared to what we used to pay for top rods back in the day.

 

[Neil Smart]

For me I have gone through a whole load of cheap rods to the medium priced and just now the 'better' rods that have a higher price tag. Of course we all know the quality of Harrison blanks, and that is a given, then we have the Drennan's and Diawa's or perfectly good rods and the Infinitie's that I don't own, and the Drennan's that I do.

I do like the Drennan's especially the Specialist Powers, and I still have a Specialist in it's case unused, far too pretty to use

I suppose the worst Barbel rod I have owned was the first proper Barbel rod I purchased, the Hyperloop, although I did catch a few Barbel on the thing, but back then the rivers full of Barbel and even I couldn't go wrong.

If I was to have just one rod it would have to be the 11'Torrix 1.75, it feels so right, understated, and a joy to play fish on.

The Wilson Avon's have served me well, but if ever there was an example of how to ruin a brand, it is this, sold out to the Far East manufacturing lure, and never will recover.

 

[Dave Taylor]

Not coarse rods I admit,...but if you were to experiment casting a 5oz sinker a reasonable distance off a beach with say, a Century £300-£400 racing model, then with a £30 cheapie " beachcaster" combo all will be revealed.
Cheap weak blanks that fold under compression, no sliding adjustment for reel fitting positions,... no coaster option, weak joints, poor rings and usually heavy and unbalanced feel.
There again the mid range budget Shakespeare Salt rods £80-120 can make the likes of Zippies and Century rods seem overpriced imho.
Most anglers don't get to use a great variety of rods in the same range to be able to compare and have to rely on feedback and hype.
There are some really good mid priced rods out there, but there are always obvious cost saving features to bring them into a certain price bracket.
Depends how much use a rod is going to get as well, as some of the cheaper reel fittings for instance don't always stand the test of time.
I used to build my own in the 80's but eventually struggled to buy the blanks and fittings for less than Mr Wong's rods from South Korea and China were costing complete.
Ps. .. The overriding factor is that whatever you buy has got to be fit for purpose, some just aren't.

 

[George Maltby]

Not coarse rods I admit,...but if you were to experiment casting a 5oz sinker a reasonable distance off a beach with say, a Century £300-£400 racing model, then with a £30 cheapie " beachcaster" combo all will be revealed.
Cheap weak blanks that fold under compression, no sliding adjustment for reel fitting positions,... no coaster option, weak joints, poor rings and usually heavy and unbalanced feel.
There again the mid range budget Shakespeare Salt rods £80-120 can make the likes of Zippies and Century rods seem overpriced imho.
Most anglers don't get to use a great variety of rods in the same range to be able to compare and have to rely on feedback and hype.
There are some really good mid priced rods out there, but there are always obvious cost saving features to bring them into a certain price bracket.
Depends how much use a rod is going to get as well, as some of the cheaper reel fittings for instance don't always stand the test of time.
I used to build my own in the 80's but eventually struggled to buy the blanks and fittings for less than Mr Wong's rods from South Korea and China were costing complete.
Ps. .. The overriding factor is that whatever you buy has got to be fit for purpose, some just aren't.

But even then Dave, its relative, Beachcasters tend to cost a bit more than freshwater rods. The Daiwa Supercasts I own compete directly with a tip tornado SM and, for me, beat them in 'fishability' hands down, and are half the price. I had a wiggle of the leeda 'icon' series in a shop the other day. They cost £100 and I have heard of a few people relegating their zippys/Centuries to the rod cupboard in favour of the leeda's.

 

[Joe Winstanley]

Specialist anglers are spoilt for choice these days with the array of rods on the market, although I'm sure there are a few dogs out there, generally speaking most rods are pretty decent.

As with most things though, you do get what you pay for. I had a pair of Grey's Prodigy Twin-tips (1.25 - 1.75) for around six seasons and they did pretty much did everything I asked of them, and for money I paid for them (around £110 each) they were excellent value for money. I moved on to Harrison's Interceptors for tench fishing and Chimera's for barbel, both in a different class to the Greys and that's not to say the Greys were bad rods. Far from it.

It's the little things that separate the top end rods from the rest, imho. My casting at range is slightly more accurate and consistent with the Interceptors than the softer actioned Prodigy's for instance.

Have I landed a fish on the Harrison's that I wouldn't have landed on the Prodigy's - probably not. But they are more enjoyable to play fish on, and that's really what its all about.

Probably, the best all round value for money rod I have ever fished with was the Nash Elite Barbel Specialist 12ft 2lb. For £40 each they were astoundingly good, better than the Greys and really not far off the Harrison's. It's a shame Nash didn't stock with them, I can only assume that for around £40/each they weren't making any money on them.

 

[Neil Smart]

For me I have gone through a whole load of cheap rods to the medium priced and just now the 'better' rods that have a higher price tag. Of course we all know the quality of Harrison blanks, and that is a given, then we have the Drennan's and Diawa's or perfectly good rods and the Infinitie's that I don't own, and the Drennan's that I do.

I do like the Drennan's especially the Specialist Powers, and I still have a Specialist in it's case unused, far too pretty to use

I suppose the worst Barbel rod I have owned was the first proper Barbel rod I purchased, the Hyperloop, although I did catch a few Barbel on the thing, but back then the rivers full of Barbel and even I couldn't go wrong.

If I was to have just one rod it would have to be the 11'Torrix 1.75, it feels so right, understated, and a joy to play fish on.

The Wilson Avon's have served me well, but if ever there was an example of how to ruin a brand, it is this, sold out to the Far East manufacturing lure, and never will recover.

 

[Dave Taylor]

Quite so George, we should never get tunnel vision. It was possibly unfair of me to use the beachcaster analogy.

 

[Chris Jones]

My experience has been that there aren't the terribly bad rods that there once were. Differences in quality between price points aren't anything like as obvious as they were twenty five (plus) years ago. The differences in quality are smaller the higher up the price scale you go. Those that expect double the performance by doubling the price are in for a big disappointment. Modern retail structure means that doubling the price is never likely to give more than a third better performance. The reality is likely to be somewhat less. All of that is before branding premiums and marketing/pricing strategies are taken into account.

Generally speaking, I'm of the opinion that you do tend to get what you pay for (brand premiums notwithstanding). However, diminishing returns at the higher end of the pricing scales mean that the differences may not be significant enough for many to care or even notice. However, there are bargains to be had in end of range products (many mainstream manufacturers operate 3-4 year product cycles), second hand, and when brands produce good quality rods at a low price in an attempt to break into a market. There are so many rods out there that disappear without trace, unloved and unlauded. It's not always because they were bad or even just average.

 

[Steve Lewis]

However, there are bargains to be had in end of range products (many mainstream manufacturers operate 3-4 year product cycles), second hand, and when brands produce good quality rods at a low price in an attempt to break into a market. There are so many rods out there that disappear without trace, unloved and unlauded. It's not always because they were bad or even just average.

Absolutely, Chris. In fact many of the old Masterline Wilson rods passed a lot of people by. Obviously everyone knew and still knows the Avon, which sold shed loads, and someone will always happily pick up second hand ones. But after that, the range of JW rods that people ignored and now didn't even know existed is incredible, and all of them were brilliant rods. Just thinking off the top of my head of the ones I bought, and still use - the stepped up 1.75lb 11-13ft barbel, the 13-15ft long trotter (identical version now made by J W Young), the multi tip specialist, the 12ft barbel float (even if it does act like a cane avon rod), the 9ft Wanderer (most people only know of the 10ft Stalker), and so on and so on. All of them brilliant rods.

And the old Shimano Purist range from a few years ago - absolutely amazing rods that, whilst not cheap, were at a just about affordable price point and were extremely high quality. Now, just a few years after the range stopped, you'd be hard pressed to find anything about them, other than a few predator rods.

I think that's why I tend to scour eBay and check the clearance aisles of my local tackle shops, rather than browse the newly released stuff.

 

[Terry Simner]

Specialist anglers are spoilt for choice these days with the array of rods on the market, although I'm sure there are a few dogs out there, generally speaking most rods are pretty decent.

As with most things though, you do get what you pay for. I had a pair of Grey's Prodigy Twin-tips (1.25 - 1.75) for around six seasons and they did pretty much did everything I asked of them, and for money I paid for them (around £110 each) they were excellent value for money. I moved on to Harrison's Interceptors for tench fishing and Chimera's for barbel, both in a different class to the Greys and that's not to say the Greys were bad rods. Far from it.

It's the little things that separate the top end rods from the rest, imho. My casting at range is slightly more accurate and consistent with the Interceptors than the softer actioned Prodigy's for instance.

Have I landed a fish on the Harrison's that I wouldn't have landed on the Prodigy's - probably not. But they are more enjoyable to play fish on, and that's really what its all about.

Probably, the best all round value for money rod I have ever fished with was the Nash Elite Barbel Specialist 12ft 2lb. For £40 each they were astoundingly good, better than the Greys and really not far off the Harrison's. It's a shame Nash didn't stock with them, I can only assume that for around £40/each they weren't making any money on them.

Hi Joe, re. the "Nash Elite Barbel Specialist 12ft 2lb".. any idea who made the blanks for those? I bought my first Nash "The Specialist" Barbel Tri-Tip (1.5/1.75/QT .. NOT the Dean Macey thing) 14 years ago and loved it so much I now have 5 of them (2 of the 1.5 tips have been shortened to give a test curve of 2.2lb!). Anyone know if the blanks for the 'Tri-tip' and the 'Elite' were made by the same company, and which company /companies that was??
ATVB
Terry

 

[Chris Jones]

Absolutely, Chris. In fact many of the old Masterline Wilson rods passed a lot of people by. Obviously everyone knew and still knows the Avon, which sold shed loads, and someone will always happily pick up second hand ones. But after that, the range of JW rods that people ignored and now didn't even know existed is incredible, and all of them were brilliant rods. Just thinking off the top of my head of the ones I bought, and still use - the stepped up 1.75lb 11-13ft barbel, the 13-15ft long trotter (identical version now made by J W Young), the multi tip specialist, the 12ft barbel float (even if it does act like a cane avon rod), the 9ft Wanderer (most people only know of the 10ft Stalker), and so on and so on. All of them brilliant rods.

You are barking up the wrong tree with regards to me and Wilson rods. An unfashionably dim view of the original Wilson Avon didn't endear the later Wilson rods to me. My loss, no doubt. I have an even more pronounced, and acknowledged unfair, bias against Shakespeare. I can only suggest that we are all a product of our experiences, for good or ill.

And the old Shimano Purist range from a few years ago - absolutely amazing rods that, whilst not cheap, were at a just about affordable price point and were extremely high quality. Now, just a few years after the range stopped, you'd be hard pressed to find anything about them, other than a few predator rods.

Different kettle of fish here. I didn't actually buy a Purist rod when they were available, nor when they were discounted heavily (not that I had even a passing interest in any predator rod). However, I did rate some of them highly. I even recommended the Purist Brench to fellow anglers that had a specific use for them. By the time I actually had the same use in mind, I had to, unbegrudgingly, pay a bit more for a second hand pair than the cheapest clearance price I'd encountered. Not all of that range punched above its price tag, but some certainly did.

 

[Joe Winstanley]

Hi Joe, re. the "Nash Elite Barbel Specialist 12ft 2lb".. any idea who made the blanks for those? I bought my first Nash "The Specialist" Barbel Tri-Tip (1.5/1.75/QT .. NOT the Dean Macey thing) 14 years ago and loved it so much I now have 5 of them (2 of the 1.5 tips have been shortened to give a test curve of 2.2lb!). Anyone know if the blanks for the 'Tri-tip' and the 'Elite' were made by the same company, and which company /companies that was??
ATVB
Terry

No idea Terry - superb blanks though.

 

[Steve Lewis]

I have an even more pronounced, and acknowledged unfair, bias against Shakespeare. I can only suggest that we are all a product of our experiences, for good or ill.

Indeed so - I've similarly always had a real experience based dislike of Silstar and Leeda (that is the Silstar and Leeda that were around in the 90s). Never liked any of the rods and reels I tried, and they were certainly never featured or considered in the high-end stakes. Yet now, a lot of those Silstar rods and the Leeda Blue Diamond range are considered as classics and routinely fetch a premium on eBay.


As for the Wilson Avon - I think that one (as in the main second run with the 50/50 cork and duplon handle that most people are familiar with - the earlier signature version with the full cork handle and the later revised/improved one with the full cork and fuji reel seat had different blanks and were, effectively, different rods) has always very much been a love/hate rod. I personally love it and it has accounted for most of my specimens, but I know there are plenty of anglers out there who are bewildered by its popularity.

 

[Graham Elliott]

The difficult thing is everyones perception is different.

One of the best rods I ever owned is a Silstar Proton Float rod with extention handle. Bent from 45degrees to the floor with no flat spot. ( Anyone got one to sell!) Yes that brand could be considered cheap end of the market.

Prefered rods?
Barbel. Torrix 12ft 1.75 and 2.0
Never found a comparison.


Float. Drennan Classic IM9. 13ft.
This over Normark 2000 Titan and Hardy 13ft Marksman
That would cost loads more.

Ledger. Shimano Barbel specialist 12ft with quiver top.
This over Drennan series 7 Avon/quiver 1.25
J Wilson original 11ft green blank Avon/quiver.

Fly. Leeda 7/8 weight at around £30
This over Orvis 7/8 at atound £220.

Each individuals preference id determined usually by their playing style and places they fish I guess.

 

[David Craine]

Rods for a purpose

I cant say much about Carbon freshwater rods, as I dont have many, the Shimano Hyperloops that I bought were and are useless for anybody wanting to use them for Barbel, but I do find them acceptable when using the quiver tip for Bream. I have a pair of Fox Barbel rods ,now quite old, but they suit me for any river Barbelling.
I have a pair of Carbon Carp rods that I use for Pike, not budget, but not big bucks either, I cant remember what brand, in fact I arent really bothered, they will cast a big bait , and have handled plent of double figure up to 20 Pike, so no complaints .
I use a carbon " Carp Match" rod for float fishing, it cost a whole ten pounds from a tackle exhibition in Manchester years ago, no brand name, but it has a lovely action, so again, happy enough with it.
In a nutshell, I am no tackle tart, and the "name " on a rod does nothing for me at all.In fact a "name " will actually put me off on occasion. Some years ago, I had one of the full cork handled Wilson Avon rods that are thought highly of, the tip snapped when casting, not even a fish on it, not caught in branches etc, it just snapped, the retailer replaced the tip without a qualm, the rod was sold on, I just had no confidence in it after that.

I do a lot of beach angling, and IMO there is more snobbery on the beach than anywhere on any river,with a certain class of person who only will be seen with that "ZZiplex " brand... or alternativeley that "Century " I must admit I used to be a big Conoflex fan, but now have only the one Conny travel rod, since Conoflex went to the wall ( another British manufacturer gone ) Conoflex rods seem to be gaining a name for collectors .
The real cheap end of beach gear is Fladen, but even those rods still catch fish.
On the beach, the Italians are fast taking a good share of the market, some of their continental rods are fantastic, even the budget end foreign rods have some followers, cheaper fittings yes, but the core of the rod, IE the carbon is of good quality and usually has a good action.
I have a couple of AFAW, rods, an old Zippy that I rescued and rebuilt, a few odds and sodds, and a Vercelli, more than enough really.

Gosh, I went on a bit there..

Dave

 

[Chris Thomson]

Those fox barbel rods the green blanks were prob the best barbel rods fox produced, i still use the 1 3/4 lb tc rod now and the action is superb and although the rod has been battered i polish it up with car polish every close season and it still comes up as new, tried a torrix alongside it and sold it on, im currently using a free spirit 10 ft bank creeper and cant fault it

 

[Nick Coulthurst]

I'm not a happy angler unless I'm 100% happy with the rod in my hand. For float fishing I love my Normark Avenger II and for barbel fishing it has to be a 12ft Harrison Torrix 1.75. For small stream chubbing I love the TFG River and Stream. The best medium priced barbel rod I've used is the original Greys Prodigy 1.75 and the Daiwa Powermesh 1.5 (bit more expensive).

Nick C

 

[Graham Elliott]

Please note the rod I refered to as Silstar Proton I meant Sundridge....in case you have one!

 

[Dave Taylor]

I cant say much about Carbon freshwater rods, as I dont have many, the Shimano Hyperloops that I bought were and are useless for anybody wanting to use them for Barbel, but I do find them acceptable when using the quiver tip for Bream. I have a pair of Fox Barbel rods ,now quite old, but they suit me for any river Barbelling.
I have a pair of Carbon Carp rods that I use for Pike, not budget, but not big bucks either, I cant remember what brand, in fact I arent really bothered, they will cast a big bait , and have handled plent of double figure up to 20 Pike, so no complaints .
I use a carbon " Carp Match" rod for float fishing, it cost a whole ten pounds from a tackle exhibition in Manchester years ago, no brand name, but it has a lovely action, so again, happy enough with it.
In a nutshell, I am no tackle tart, and the "name " on a rod does nothing for me at all.In fact a "name " will actually put me off on occasion. Some years ago, I had one of the full cork handled Wilson Avon rods that are thought highly of, the tip snapped when casting, not even a fish on it, not caught in branches etc, it just snapped, the retailer replaced the tip without a qualm, the rod was sold on, I just had no confidence in it after that.

I do a lot of beach angling, and IMO there is more snobbery on the beach than anywhere on any river,with a certain class of person who only will be seen with that "ZZiplex " brand... or alternativeley that "Century " I must admit I used to be a big Conoflex fan, but now have only the one Conny travel rod, since Conoflex went to the wall ( another British manufacturer gone ) Conoflex rods seem to be gaining a name for collectors .
The real cheap end of beach gear is Fladen, but even those rods still catch fish.
On the beach, the Italians are fast taking a good share of the market, some of their continental rods are fantastic, even the budget end foreign rods have some followers, cheaper fittings yes, but the core of the rod, IE the carbon is of good quality and usually has a good action.
I have a couple of AFAW, rods, an old Zippy that I rescued and rebuilt, a few odds and sodds, and a Vercelli, more than enough really.

Gosh, I went on a bit there..

Dave

I think one of the basic requirements of a good beachcaster ( usually expensive) is having the backbone to distance cast yet retain tip sensitivity.
That finesse is often missing from cheaper rods.
A while back I was looking at continental style rods for targeting mid range bits and bods and went for a Sonik sk4 15 footer to be used with a fixed spool braid setup. As I prefer multipliers I was afraid it wasn't going to suit but was amazed at the ease of casting and sensitivity of the outfit, but it set me back a few quid!

I seem to have accumulated too many rods, like you do, but still like my old Drennan 13' stick, northwestern rodcraft 11' feeder and giant Martin Bowler Ouse barbel ( which was a budget rod) . All the others are a luxury and wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea, but I do love the torrix and Hardy marksman....always subjective isn't it?