• You need to be a registered member of Barbel Fishing World to post on these forums. Some of the forums are hidden from non-members. Please refer to the instructions on the ‘Register’ page for details of how to join the new incarnation of BFW...

Pigeon conditioner

E

Ed Green

Senior Member
I recently spoke to a river baliff who informed me that a regular from 'up north' had been using a mix of pigeon conditioner in his feeder. He reckoned it a lot cheeper than fish based feeder mix from tackle shops and seemed to attract the fish.
I've heard that the match boys use it, anyone any experience of this product???
 
Ed, the term 'pigeon conditioner' covers a multitude of sins. Most bird food marketing companies sell several mixes of mini seeds, vitamins, minerals, dried peppers and other concoctions that they call bird/canary/pigeon conditioners. The famous 'robin red' itself is a concoction originally formulated by Haiths (the biggest of the lot), and that is regarded by most carp anglers as the definitive, most frequently used bait additive/attractor of all time. There are numerous copies of robin red around, but none as good as the original, in my opinion. If you look at Haiths site, you will see mixes of mini seeds with robin red added (red band for one), and most other sites have their own versions. Unfortunately, Haiths cottoned on to the fact that anglers were using these mixes in large quantities (Thanks Ken Townley :D) and the prices have gone up considerably since then.

Still, take a look...and look at the bird food sections as well. any small seed mix can work, but remember most of them need soaking and/or cooking before use...like hemp.

Buy Haith's SuperCatch

Cheers, Dave.
 
From the start of the season til about this time of year I use a 50/50 mix of red band pigeon conditioner and hemp , the conditioner is put into a bucket and covered in boiling water usually about 2 inches above it , stir it and check it for first 12 hours because it soaks alot of water up and swells alot , I soak my hemp for 24 hours in cold water then boil it up then put in a separate bucket with lid on with a brick on or something heavy to ensure lid dont come off with heat from water when conditoner had been soaking for about 3 days it is combined with the hemp ensure water covers it , some people freeze it when they have used it til next session but I leave mine in bucket it continues to ferment and can smell abit after a couple of months but dont seem to bother the fish
 
David Gauntlett said:
Ed, the term 'pigeon conditioner' covers a multitude of sins. Most bird food marketing companies sell several mixes of mini seeds, vitamins, minerals, dried peppers and other concoctions that they call bird/canary/pigeon conditioners. The famous 'robin red' itself is a concoction originally formulated by Haiths (the biggest of the lot), and that is regarded by most carp anglers as the definitive, most frequently used bait additive/attractor of all time. There are numerous copies of robin red around, but none as good as the original, in my opinion. If you look at Haiths site, you will see mixes of mini seeds with robin red added (red band for one), and most other sites have their own versions. Unfortunately, Haiths cottoned on to the fact that anglers were using these mixes in large quantities (Thanks Ken Townley :D) and the prices have gone up considerably since then.

Still, take a look...and look at the bird food sections as well. any small seed mix can work, but remember most of them need soaking and/or cooking before use...like hemp.

Buy Haith's SuperCatch

Cheers, Dave.
Click to expand...

A most informative post, thanks, Dave. Haiths are no bargain basement organisation. Their seed prices are considerably higher than my local supplier.
 
Last edited:
No need to boil pigeon conditioner.Put in a cool box,cover with boiling water.Leave it overnight and it is fine.
I use it primarily to encourage bream to make clear spots in the weed on my syndicate lake.Good stuff and not too expensive.
Phil.W
 
Last edited:
overnight !!!!!!!!!!!! needs at least 2 days to fully swell !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
the redband one had tares and chick peas in plus other particles the same size
 
Well I'll take your word for it Robert,but i've never seen any kind of pigeon conditioner with chick peas in.If they have then of course you are right they will take longer.
Phil.W
 
Never used the red band myself but used the Titmuss conditioning seed for years.

Soaked over night in a cooler box with plenty of boiling water and its a goer.

Caught many carp using this but no experience of using it on the rivers. Mind you, I've got half a sack in the shed so might give it a go.
 
I like Bob soakine for at least a couple of days and then i kill it by boiling and a further week fplus ermenting. Personally think its bad practice not boiling it.
Pure hemp imo is better though.
 
Red band is great, leave it soaking for a week or so and it sprouts, you also get a really sticky slime form which is brilliant. This time of the year is particle time, there must be thousands of tons of seeds find their way into rivers naturally which does the pre baiting for you.
And Jon, not so sure about your statement, "Personally I think its bad practice not boiling it", obviously not one ounce of natural seed gets boiled before it falls in the river.
 
Adrian Williams said:
Red band is great, leave it soaking for a week or so and it sprouts, you also get a really sticky slime form which is brilliant. This time of the year is particle time, there must be thousands of tons of seeds find their way into rivers naturally which does the pre baiting for you.
And Jon, not so sure about your statement, "Personally I think its bad practice not boiling it", obviously not one ounce of natural seed gets boiled before it falls in the river.
Click to expand...

Tigers get a similar 'gloop' if you allow them to ferment after cooking Adrian (Cue all the jokes :D) and they also are at their best in that condition, in my opinion. The cooking thing is always a bone of contention/point of discussion. I have heard it said time and again that cooking hemp improves it's qualities as an attractor by 'releasing the natural oils'. I have no idea whether this is a scientific fact, or an urban myth...although I always have cooked my hemp. Another thing that was always drummed into carp fishers was the longish cooking time required for nuts to render them safe as bait...tigers, peanuts, brazils, and so on. Once more, I have no idea whether it is a proven fact that these items really will kill fish if not prepared in that way, or not....although I have always rigidly stuck to the guidlines, just in case.

As for Jon's 'bad practice not to boil seeds', I find myself agreeing with that. Not from a fish safety viewpoint, as I think a long soaking is often all that's required to re-hydrate mini seeds that have dried out in storage. Certainly, that allows them to swell to their maximum size and so avoids the 'swelling in the fishes stomach' possibility that is often mooted as being a problem. Again, I don't really know if that is actually a danger to fish...or just another myth.

However, many of the seeds included in these mixes are not from these shores, they are 'legal immigrants'....and I have seen an awful lot of VERY strange things growing on river banks where live seeds have been dropped. I noticed it first in my garden around my bird feeders that I fill with 'Wild bird seed mix'....the spillage from that produces some interesting growing 'things' that I haven't seen before in typical English countryside...until I started recognising similar stuff (and more) growing on river banks where anglers have been :D Reason to worry/shades of balsam etc.?.....or not?

Interesting subject I think.

Cheers, Dave.
 
Last edited:
I'm glad you mentioned the swelling in the gut thing, imo it is an urban myth, if you look at a fishes gut it is a very simple thing, they don't have an acid stomach and all the complicated plumbing which goes with it like mammals and basically what goes in one end comes out the other, how many times have you seen it in print words to the effect of, "it was dribbling my bait from it's vent all over the mat"?
I think any undigested food simply passes through without causing any problems whatsoever, and any swelling which might occur simply pushes food further along digestive tract. When I used to fish for trout I must have gutted hundreds of them and have often found gravel, snails, seeds of all descriptions and goodness knows what else inside them, in mid summer they would be full of flag iris seeds, none of which were cooked.
Incidentally, you may or may not know, the reason why tigers nuts are so effective as a bait is because they are not nuts at all, they are in fact the tubers of a sedge which grows naturally in water.
 
I'm glad you mentioned the swelling in the gut thing, imo it is an urban myth

Have to agree with you there Adrian.

I personally know of fishery owners in France and UK who feed unprepared maize straight into their fisheries.

I also know a fishery owner who feeds unprepared oats and wheat straight out of the sack, all to no detriment to his stock.
 
I think I remember reading something about it wasn't seeds expanding in the gut that was killing fish it was toxins as a by product. I can't explain fully as I have not got the article in front of me. Just a thought..

Brian
 
Adrian Williams said:
I'm glad you mentioned the swelling in the gut thing, imo it is an urban myth, if you look at a fishes gut it is a very simple thing, they don't have an acid stomach and all the complicated plumbing which goes with it like mammals and basically what goes in one end comes out the other, how many times have you seen it in print words to the effect of, "it was dribbling my bait from it's vent all over the mat"?
I think any undigested food simply passes through without causing any problems whatsoever, and any swelling which might occur simply pushes food further along digestive tract. When I used to fish for trout I must have gutted hundreds of them and have often found gravel, snails, seeds of all descriptions and goodness knows what else inside them, in mid summer they would be full of flag iris seeds, none of which were cooked.
Incidentally, you may or may not know, the reason why tigers nuts are so effective as a bait is because they are not nuts at all, they are in fact the tubers of a sedge which grows naturally in water.
Click to expand...

I am with you on the bait preparation thing Adrian, I have always quietly seen it in a similar way to yourself, but have no proof or scientific evidence either way....which is why I worded my post as I did. There was a great deal of fuss many moons back about numbers of carp dying due to people using inadequately prepared peanuts. My personal feelings were that the more likely cause of deaths was the toxic moulds that are sometimes present on peanuts improperly stored. Having said that, perhaps the moulds would have been neutralised by lengthy boiling? If so, those claiming the need for boiling everything would have been proven right, in a topsy turvy kind of way :D As you say, fish eat some astonishing things, with most large cyprinids eating mussels, crayfish and snails. If they can cope with that lot, I wouldn't be surprised if they could cope with nuts with the shells left on, let alone uncooked :p. However, I will continue preparing them as I always have....I would hate to be the cause of fish deaths if I was found to be wrong :D

Tiger nuts actually tubers? No, I didn't know that Adrian, but it makes sense when you look at them and think about it...they look like little taters :D Mind you, I thought carp ate them because they taste so nice...I love them :p

Cheers, Dave.
 
I've never been convinced by this soaking and boiling thing and was going to say this earlier in this topic but decided caution might be the better way forward. Birds don't seem to have too many problems with bloated tummies after eating bird seed. The mouldy seed is an interesting point. Birds won't eat mouldy peanuts or seed. Mouldy peanuts and seed can contain a very deadly toxin, aflatoxin. Whether fish can detect the mould is another issue and if not, then I suspect that they would be on their backs in double quick time.
I don't think that boiling will break down the toxin, it might wash the superficial mould off the seeds etc. and hence soaking/boiling may have some merit for this reason alone.

One other point, when the seed starts to germinate after soaking, the stored carbohydrate start to break down and form sugar molecules. Boiling will halt this process.
 
Birds have a very different digestive system to fish and cope with seeds by grinding them in their crop with sharp grit, if you keep chickens you are advised to spread grit along with the feed. My nan used to keep all the egg shells and crush them and feed them back to the hens.
The mould on peanuts is a good point, I seem to remember the RSPB made a big thing of it a few years ago and as a result I think all nuts imported into this country now have to be inspected before they can be sold, but like anything else, I suppose there is always going to be the unscrupulous dealer who will be happy to make a fast buck by selling iffy ones. The answer of course is to only buy from reputable dealers.
 
One further point, which may or may not be relevant. Like all cyprinids, barbel have pharyngeal teeth, which they use to crush the shells of crayfish, mussels, snails and any other hard foodstuff they take in. So...one assumes that if they were to suck in a large, uncooked nut, they would simply do the same to that, in order to swallow it....thus rendering it to a stage where they could either digest it, or pass it through unaltered. Small/medium nuts can be passed through in the same way. I know for a fact that relatively small carp can pass whole tiger nuts undigested. Quite why they do so occasionally is another matter, but they treat hemp in the same way occasionally as well. The point being, if they CAN pass items large or small whenever they (or their bodies) choose...why would anything they eat be a problem? If it was indigestible or swelling up, they would just get rid :D

Cheers, Dave.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top