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Otters and the Angling Trust.

I'm sorry Pete but it has to be said that your last post was an absolute load of old half truthed condescending cr4p!!

Otters were and have been in a postion where they could if conditions proved favourable to grow in numbers for over two decades.
They have had strong holds in areas all around mainland UK.
South Wales, Western Scotland and Northern England that I know of.
From these strong holds a population expansion would have been a very easily achievable goal naturally but for one consideration that naturally governs predators over populating any given area.... FOOD SOURCE!!

This lack of a sustainable food source is what had been holding back a population growth in otters, just a shame do-gooding interfering fools thought they knew better than nature itself.

Nothing stopping otters moving from where I'd seen them 25 years ago at Port Talbot east along the coast to the Severn estuary then 'naturally' up into the tributaries W. Avon, Teme, Wye etc.

You stated the Teme has always supported a population of otters. So why then did they not spread themselves further a field?
I posed that as a question though I'll answer it for you!
Simple really because the environment was not suitable, why?
Simple again, insufficient food resource for the population of otters to sustain such a increase in numbers!

For any species to thrive naturally three major objectives must be met. A suitable and abundant food source, evasion of predation and suitable habitat / environment.
Well the lack of growth in otter numbers should have shown that at least one of these crucial areas was a drift and in the UK there are very few species that will successfully predate a otter, so I'm guessing that its one or both of the other two criterium?

Again I should let you Pete to answer but I'll help you anyway.
If a new species (otters) is introduced into any given environment (our rivers). It is normal / usual to experience a rapid population growth.
Due to a lack of competition for food and territory. This coupled with easy pickings found in said environment (old fish), this just serves to exacerbate the sitsuation further because a now very overly inflated population of any given species (otters) will be left (as we are finding now) to find food (fish) but the problems in sustaining those food sorces are still there but then without any adult stock either....

Any bright ideas??

This was in response to post no. 38.
 
Given that I explained both why the decline in otters was due to their inability to breed and this led to a reintroduction programme in the mid to late ninties and then went out to point out that the population "explosion" as you call it is indeed due as you correctly say to an abundance of prey species I am not sure where the "half truthed condescending cr4p" comes in?
The Teme and many other rivers had otters...they were unable to breed. There were still otters present (they live for quite a few years) to my knowledge in the mid 90's when a couple of breeding pairs were introduced to replace them. There has always been a small number of otters on the Teme and a pack of otter hounds who regularly hunted them. A situation I for one would like to see returned, but unfortunately that is just not going to happen.Most hunters also supported the suspension of otter hunting when the species was threatened with extinction. I for one would like to see a sustainable population of otters in the UK controlled by the hunt, if the population does get out of hand and not by shooting or any of the other methods being proposed (putting them in zoos being just about the worse thing I have seen so far).
At present the superabundence of prey caused by over stocked man made fisheries has caused a very rapid growth over the last ten years in the numbers of otters. The solution is not to seek a cull of otters as this will only lead to the end of angling on rivers and anglers forced to give up their pursuit of wild fish in favour of fishing controlled commercial fisheries (an outcome desired by many). It is to remove that superabundance by stopping overstocking in man made fisheries. Requiring commercial fisheries to protect their stocks at their own expense and ensure that our rivers are adequately managed to support the quantity and quality of fish they are capable of, which will give us sport and otters food.
By the way, if trying to put right what we have done wrong; by removing man created polution from rivers enabling a native species that has lived in those rivers for millions of years until we started to pour chemicals into them makes me a "do-gooder" then I admit I would rather be a "do-gooder" than a "do-badder". however don't classify me with the modern tree hugging playing at it so called animal lovers who dominate the so called "green" movement these days. I am an environmentalist, an angler and a hunter. I want to continue to be able to do this without being organised into angling parks, complete with toilet blocks and TV outlets.
 
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Like I said Pete and because it never sunk in "half truths".
Though I'll agree the population explosion in otters is a man made and incited by do-gooders who in reality have no idea what they are doing of what they've done..... And otter re-introductions are on going.
http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/search/default.aspx
(can't get the link I'm after but enter key word otter and you'll be given loads of options)

Shy retiring creature my 4rse for any otter spotters take a walk along the Oxford canal / river Cherwell to the point marked on map with a red circle and if your lucky you'll see one of our furry friends who has very clearly lost its inherent / instinctive fear of man but then its no longer needed.
Another possibility is that its another do-gooder recent release?
http://www.multimap.com/maps/?qs=en...formation&loc=GB:51.86101:-1.29698:20|enslow|
On a plus no need to even trespass to go otter spotting as a foot path runs right to there.

Do-gooder or do-badder, well me I'd be neither...
Do-gooder, A naive idealist who supports philanthropic or humanitarian causes.
Its the naivety that causes all the problems I'd suggest!!
 
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Colin..your link in respect of your claim that otter re introductions are on going doesn't work. If you have such information then I would suggest you do something about it as introducing wild animals without a license is an offence under the WCA and no licenses have been issued for a considerable time. The only otter releases since the re introduction programme ended in 1999 have been wild otters found injured or orphaned, not the imported breeding pairs and not domesticated otters from zoos (which wouldn't survive anyway) I know that moronic children of the animal rights groups often make claims that they have done so (and it may be these lurid claims that you are responding to), however they haven't, they just make a lot of noise. I spent quite a bit of time reporting on these people and the fantasy world they live in should be ignored by all sensible people and their hysterical statements treated with big pinches of salt. There is absolutly no need to release any more otters into the wild as anybody who spends any time on the river bank knows...the release carried out in the late 90's has been successful/disastrous according to your view point; but it was carried out legally, there was a lot of consultation at the time and to describe it as irresponsible is very misleading.
Otters are confident creatures and defend their young and their terriotory from any thing including humans...I am not sure where you got the idea that they were shy and retiring from. Like any wild animal they will avoid people if possible, but when people invade what is after all their habitat they are inclined to stand their ground. I have seen otters take on packs of hounds in the past and do themselves proud. I have also photographed otters breaking into salmon cages in the highlands, in full view of the workers (much to my joy as I hate salmon farming).
I remain proudly an idealist and I am occasionally even philanthropic...but I am certainly not naive enough to believe that animal rights idiots who can't even manage to tie their own shoelaces are capable of raising the rather large amounts of cash to buy a European otter (the ones I spent time with during the Oxford science lab protest were always planning to release this and release that....the best they managed were a few bunnies from a lab, that wouldn't have lasted a day out in the wild), smuggle it into the UK and then release it into the wild (where it would soon find itself in big trouble with the native otters....) still if you want to believe such things that is up to you.
 
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Oh for the Otter Hunt.....one very good reason why the population on the Teme didn't get out of control and cause an explosion up all the other tributories of the Severn.


Rich.
 
Otters

I must say I find the expression "nature will find a balance" provides no comfort to me, as I fear that balance on many rivers (ones with poor fry recruitment due to any of the following : lack of suitable spawning beds, large crayfish populations, cormorant predation, over abstraction, and intermittent pollution incidents) will be one of few otters and few fish. If otter numbers are not "managed" then the only short term answer is to keep re-stocking, which is ridiculous.
Looking at the long term, it would probably be better if the EA didn't restock at all, then the dramatic decline of otters following the dissappearance of all the current adult fish, would make the dire state of many of our rivers apparent to the public, and something might actually be done about it - dream on.
The only other hope is that their numbers have an adverse impact on a species of bird and the RSPB will take up arms, and with their slick PR machine it won't be long before otter management becomes a very real possibility. The AT of course should be doing this effectively now on our behalf, but with such low membership numbers it just doesn't have the clout. The AT needs more members, that much is obvious.
I haven't seen an otter for some time, but I don't need to read a whore's diary to know she doesn't love me. The damage they are doing to SOME fisheries is real (natural and commercial). If we could reverse all the bad man has previously done to the the environment and return our rivers to the natural habitats they were before we arrived on the planet, then maybe we wouldn't be moaning about otters, but being realistic, I think managing otter numbers is a far more realistic goal than : reducing abstraction, eradicating pollution ......
Rabbits are cute, furry animals, the public love (Watership Down), but managing their numbers isn't regarded as a problem. The public need to be made aware of the impact their increased numbers are having in certain areas, and hopefully a more reasonable attitude to the management of their numbers will emerge.
I keep chickens and occassionally have one taken by a fox. This I can live with, as the fox is a beautiful wild creature I admire, but if he starts to treat my chicken coup like a McD's drive in, then I'll be reaching for my gun. That's how it is living at the top of the tree.
Some interesting points Pete.

Nick C
 
I agree with a lot of that Nick. But with one exception.

When you use the chicken/fox analogy it goes right to the heart of why angling isn't comparable. You eat your chickens, or at the very least their eggs. The fox would like to aswell. That puts you in direct competition and gives you the right to reach for your gun. But we don't eat the fish we catch, and as long as that remains the case, it is our big weakness on the PR front. It isn't just that otters are cute and furry (like rabbits, as you say) but is also that they are eating to survive, while we fish 'merely' for pleasure. Once that basic fact is exposed by the media my guess is that we lose the argument.
 
the fish stocks are something we anglers all pay for if holding a season permit
or buying day permits,
who pays or paid for the otter stocks?
before anyone goes off half cocked by this i mean who paid for the breeding and release of otters upon our expensive stocks of fish, to any real legal eagles out there is there any realistic chance of pursuing legal compensation
from them, or is it too difficult to prove? if the latter is the answer then
that can work for us too.....j.w
 
Pete, I'm dreadfully sorry for saying that otters were "shy and retiring". Here is the exact words I should of used, taken from Natural England's website.
"One of Britain’s shyest mammals, the otter."
Well if is the case why does the resident otter on the stretch of Cherwell I posted earlier blatantly flout that quote, easy its most probably been hand reared irrellivant of whether it was born in captivity of a orphan the fact is at the risk of coming across as a NIMBY (not in my back yard) that strettch of river has insufficient fish stocks to sustain it.

Bloody do-gooders doing what they do best. In their infinite naive and blinkered wisdom. Firstly killing a rivers fish stocks that are barely there and then placing the otter in mourtal danger, why?
Because the amount of dogs that walk that tow path it'll get nailed and more than likely by one of the many pikey owned bull terriers that get walked along there
And then who has gained...... NO ONE, not the otter, not the fisherman, not the oh so well meaning ecologist / environmentalist and certainly not the river and its ecology!!

You say the otter re-introductions about a decade were legal, so what. Being legal does not mean its correct, or does it?

Maybe we should ask the Polish, Russians or Jewish people Hitler killed in WW2
because according to German law in 1939 he was within his right to invade kill and destroy..... So was that the correct thing to do?

Before you spout on about Hitler breaking international law, to follow on this analogy. The imbeciles that chose to re-introduce otters back to the upper Thames region, certainly didn't follow the correct process in establishing that region was suitable.
Either that or they were a bunch of illiterates and couldn't interprit what the EA's fish census reports were saying.

Whatever they haven't done a very good job and that's my opinion as a lover of the environment and not as a angler.
MY opinion as a angler would be deleted quick smart for containing to many expletives!!

Further more nobody can possible deny that the otters food larder is starting resemble mother Hubbards cupboards now (rather bare).

You lay a lot of the blame at the door of commercial fisheries for offering easy rich pickings to the otters BUT why did they start gaining popularity..... because the rivers were in decline!!
A fact that was clearly overlooked by your fellow do-gooders.
 
:rolleyes:Keep taking the tablets Colin
 
Colin...commercial fisheries exploded not because the rivers were in decline but simply there are alot of anglers that are content to park their car behind their swim and throw a line to catch every time.It's the "I want it now" syndrome again.Most cann't be bothered to do what we do to catch fish and wouldn't be prepared for the effort involved.

Sorry this is going off topic a tad.

Rich.:)
 
Exactly Rich....a lot of public money, both directly from the tax payer and from the water comapnies, was spent and continues to be spent on trying to return many rivers from the dangerously poor state they were in . Many anglers have been involved not just in campaigning for this but in the practical work required. This continues. It requires co operation from all river users and will come to nothing if anglers are seen only as being interested in angling and not in overall conservation.
Angling can take place in muddy ponds built for just that purpose, in much the same way as hunting can take place by dragging bits of smelly cloth around the countryside and given the choice between otters, birds and other wildlife and anglers I know which group will win public support.
Some anglers don't want to see this happen and want to remain in the semi wild environment that is the river bank, fishing in a traditional way. Those who do so are a minority of a minority. In order to continue to do so we need to work with others who have an interest in the river system not just attack every one who isn't an angler but is interested in the rivers as a "do gooder" (or even those of us who are anglers but also have a concern for the environment in which we fish) or whatever other terms you come up with to attempt to discredit some very fine people who have worked very hard over a considerable period of time to remove and prevent pollution of all sorts in the rivers.
Unfortunatly given the pressure to commercialise everything we do these days, and the increase in the attitude of "what's in it for me" and the general selffish attitudes that are so popular this is mist likly doomed to failure and in a few decades all angling will be done on licenced ponds, complete with car parks, toilets and power outlets for I-Pods on the bank. The short sighteness of many anglers will be to blame for this.
 
Catching fish is, for me, the smallest part of why I want to spend time by a river. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy angling and always set out to give myself the best opportunity to encounter and land the species I am interested in. My point is that it is the being there, the not being at work or in traffic or tied up in some 'non-event' of modern life, that draws me to the river: I don't need a fish, just the chance of one.

Otters are a part of the river, as much a part as the fish - they are in competition with other top predators - us. If you want a result, just pay your fiver at the puddle gate, fill your net and go home. If you want to interact with the environment, be a part of it - normally alone or in the presence of one or two fellow anglers - then the river is the place. Much of our last remaining 'wilderness' is the habitat adjacent to rivers; just like us wildlife is drawn to colonize and exploit that environment.

The day I 'need' a fish to justify a 150 mile round trip, venture out into the rain, walk and slither 2-3 miles along the riverbank alone, be chased by bullocks and everything else that is involved in fishing my local rivers will be the day I have forgotten what angling is.

'Study to be quiet' as Isaac Walton said.
 
I don't actually believe that man has to be in direct competition with otters for food in order to justify managing their numbers, David, although I concede some will see it that way. Rabbits are controlled on golf courses, moles on lawns, starlings in loft spaces, bees in lofts ........It's what man does, he manages his environment to his advantage. I'm not calling for a widespread culling of otters, in fact far from it. I think the rivers that need their numbers managing are the ones where man's activities/meddlings have created an environment unsuitable for their reintroduction. It's our fault and not the otters, but unfortunately that's the current state of play.
On the rivers I currently fish, I haven't seen an otter or evidence of any being prersent, but I sympathise with anglers whose rivers have been ravaged.
I do concede that on some rivers, barbel fishing over the last decade has been ridiculously easy due to the EA's restocking programme, and have no real desire for that to be the norm, as fishing for me isn't about constant bagging up, but I also don't want to see certain rivers devoid of barbel (and chub, dace etc), sustainable only by constant restockings. It's also rather galling that we will be footing the bill for these restockings, despite not having been consulted about the reintroductions. It's a bit like my neighbour dumping his homeless mistress on my doorstep and expecting me to keep her in shoes, only not quite as expensive.
I go fishing to catch fish and whilst pursuing that aim I take great enjoyment from admiring the natural world around me. I don't go out to admire the countryside and as an afterthought decide to take a fishing rod along. I am an angler, I pay my licence fee and am a member of the AT, and I expect some kind of action where appropriate. Angling is a pastime, not life or death, but it's also an important industry and we need to be taken seriously.
Nick C
 
Interesting Comment in the Mail today from the Chief Scientist, Tom Tew of English Nature.

"We won't be re-introducing Fish Eagles into the wild until we have undertaken a thorough Investigation into the potential impact on the environment"

Graham
 
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The irony, the bloody irony of that quote........ Maybe I'm just cynical and its a understated and belated admission of things not going quite to plan regards otters.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but foresight is of greater use!!
 
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