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Otter

John Coombs

New Member
Otter spotted
Below ashurst road bridge today,downstream.
Question is? Will it eat the big population of signal crayfish.
Also spotted a shoal of 2lb to 4or5lb chub at the same time,got em going and fed em half a loaf of bread,must of been 10 fish at least.
 
Oh dear, not good! an introduced otter munching through already diminishing stocks! the medway has historically never had an otter population so these critters are definitely introduced!:mad:
 
What do you think John...an 'orrid little crayfish that has a tendency to nip you as you try to eat it, and is barely more than a mouthful. Or a nice big fat fish that won't fight back, doesn't need peeling, and will probably do you for the day? No brainer really isn't it?

Cheers, Dave.
 
It was a juvenile defiantly,bold as brass.
I'm not confident the fish stocks won't suffer,
I Can't print my feelings on this subject.:mad:
 
John,

Forgive me asking but are you sure it was an Otter. You say that it was a juvenile which suggests that it may be smaller than you expected. I've seen plenty of Mink at Ashurst and also downstream at Fordcombe (edited)....Any chance.......?

Regards

Bill W
 
Mink have been round the upper Medway for years - used to see them regularly in the 80"s and 90's, 'set free' from a farm i was told.
 
Bill
I think that Ashurst is on the Medway and Fordwich on the Kent Stour.
 
Apologies Colin I've got "witches" on the brain!!!! I of course meant Fordcombe :D
 
Mink have been round the upper Medway for years - used to see them regularly in the 80"s and 90's, 'set free' from a farm i was told.

Yes, the awfully nice 'animal rights' people did that, thus unleashing another invasive species to wreak havoc on our indigenous wildlife. They have a habit of committing senseless acts of ecological vandalism like that. Of course now that they are a lot older, they have learned their lesson and gone on to bigger things...like otters. Still at least they are indigenous, and they have the added benefit of keeping the folk at Calverton in a job...as in raising fish to feed them with. Every cloud has a silver lining.

Cheers, Dave.
 

I´m not having a go, nor necessarily disagreeing with the thread, but the fact that this was in Hereford, where barbel are prolific, doesn´t really help the argument of an anti-otter barbel angler.

I had the best 2 days barbel fishing of my life within a mile or two of this fella´s house last summer.

(incidentally, his claim that "we are within the city and at least a mile from the river" doesn´t make sense when you look at a map of the Wye and the Lugg - he could be in the very north-western suburbs, just over a mile from both rivers, but then that´s near the Yazor Brook and some ponds up there, and is on the edge of the countryside so not really "within the city")
 
I've seen pike and perch in the Thames too eating fish stocks...........Awful.


Jeff, they should be shot. However its not otters per se, it seems to be the numbers, whatever happened to 1 dog otter per 15 miles or so of river and different behavior. I will show my ignorance now, on the Kennet, there have been otters for over 30 years, rarely seen and no problem. 3 or 4 years ago otter numbers increased fairly dramatically. From seeing only 2 otters in 40 years of fishing up to 3 years ago, since i have seen them on dozens of occasions, also seen more damaged Barbel, big chunks of tail lobes missing followed by fish vanishing. Tail lobs missing was for me anyway a very rarely seen event until the increase in otter numbers.
 
Jeff, they should be shot. However its not otters per se, it seems to be the numbers, whatever happened to 1 dog otter per 15 miles or so of river and different behavior. I will show my ignorance now, on the Kennet, there have been otters for over 30 years, rarely seen and no problem. 3 or 4 years ago otter numbers increased fairly dramatically. From seeing only 2 otters in 40 years of fishing up to 3 years ago, since i have seen them on dozens of occasions, also seen more damaged Barbel, big chunks of tail lobes missing followed by fish vanishing. Tail lobs missing was for me anyway a very rarely seen event until the increase in otter numbers.

That phenomena has been noted up and down the country by countless people Robert. As you say, at one time otters were rarely seen, even before their numbers were decimated by chemical pollution, so something has changed. It has been said that the cage reared otters that were released were the problem, that they were so used to human contact that they no longer had any fear of man....which would make sense.

However, others have scoffed at that idea, saying that the numbers released were relatively few, and in any case those have long since died. So, OK...if that isn't the cause of today's problems, then what is? Let's not forget that it isn't just the otters fear of man that no longer exists. I have heard it said by some that this was a fallacy anyway, but a whole lot more folk swear it was so. Whatever, the fact is that as you say, the much quoted size of an otters territory has definitely shrunk too, so how on earth did that happen if it's nothing to do with the cage reared factor?

Seems to me that a lot of folk are good at saying 'No no, it's nothing to do with that. OK, fine...but these things ARE happening...so what IS causing it then? The only other possibilities that I can think of is that because of the ludicrous levels of protection otters now enjoy, they no longer need to fear man, because man is no longer allowed to give them so much as a hurtful stare :rolleyes: However, that still doesn't explain the shrinking territory requirements. Perhaps that is because there are so many otters now that they have had to adjust that requirement downwards? After all, how many fights to the death can an otter put up with before it changes it's habits?

I don't know, any more than I think anyone else knows. But, whatever has changed these critters, it has made the chances of our fish stocks recovering a whole lot less likely :mad:

Cheers, Dave.
 
Maybe the country now, compared to when otter where last here in numbers has a far larger biomass of prey (ie fish) allowing them smaller territorys?

And by that I'm not saying that our rivers are overstocked (in lots of cases the opposite maybe true) but how many new bodys of water, often highly stocked have appeared in the country in the last 30 years?

Jon
 
How does anyone know their territory's have shrunk and you're not just seeing the same otter repeatedly with the occasional chancer encroaching from time to time? It's not like you can tell them apart as they all wear their own unique style of hat!
 
How does anyone know their territory's have shrunk and you're not just seeing the same otter repeatedly with the occasional chancer encroaching from time to time? It's not like you can tell them apart as they all wear their own unique style of hat!

They all look the same to you? That's very racist Rhys :D:D

As you say though, how do they know? How do they know that there are now otters in every county in England? How on earth do they know how many otters there are in England now? How do they know all the other statistics about otters that they keep popping up with? Damned if I know mate...but they do seem to know.

Without a shred of evidence based on personal observations, I just have to believe that those who claim they do know 'things'...are correct. I have to believe people who tell me that our seas are over fished, or the number of tigers that are left in India, or that global warming is a fact....because I have nothing but their claims to go on. That's not very satisfactory I know, but I don't have any better alternatives.

One thing that is a fact is that a LOT more people, anglers and general public alike, are now seeing otters on our waters. Many of these sightings it seems are reported by folk who had never seen an otter before. Now that, it seems to me, can only mean (A) there are more otters about now than there ever was before (even pre the population crash) or (B) otters are not as shy of humans as they once were, or (C) a combination of both options. There are also sightings now of otters in places where they have never been recorded before....which again points towards many more otters than there were before. A lot of this may be anecdotal...but then a lot of it has come from folk who are very pro otters...so why would they make it up?

So, that leads me back to my original points. The EU are extremely upset at our politicians for not bringing the water quality of our rivers up to an acceptable level, a level which will allow our fish populations to naturally return to sustainable numbers...numbers that are capable of coping with predation by otters, as nature intended.

The fly in the ointment at the moment is that nature could not have foreseen the full spectrum of chemicals that mankind would come up with. We are not talking chemicals that would kill them if they occasionally reached lethal concentrations...they have had that to deal with for centuries. The real killer now, the slow working new kids on the block are chemicals that to a variable extent render our fish infertile, unable to breed successfully in many of our rivers....much as it can't have seen the same thing happening to otters. Nature will never have reckoned on mankind transferring creatures from one country to another either, creatures that will cause issues for our indigenous species that they have no in-built defense against...including diseases they cannot fight. Ask the Australians how we have caused havoc of that sort over the years. Sadly, things are reaching breaking point on many of our rivers. I gather that we are at the stage now where some of our rivers cannot recover without major intervention.

So, what is a beleaguered politician supposed to do, poor wee things? How about jumping onto a god sent bandwagon? How about spotting a critter that is slowly making a comeback, an impossibly cute, almost Disney like character that would be hard NOT to turn into a success story? After all, it was the banning of certain chemicals that started this slow comeback. So, plan 'A' came to be. Accelerate the return, then ensure it's survival with draconian protection levels...see how we have cleaned our rivers up?....sorted. It's just a shame it's all a big con.

It's also a bit of a shame that these animals are killing off the few remaining fish in badly estrogen polluted rivers. But hey...you can't make an omelette without cracking a few eggs, right?

Cheers, Dave.
 
Jeff, they should be shot. However its not otters per se, it seems to be the numbers, whatever happened to 1 dog otter per 15 miles or so of river and different behavior. I will show my ignorance now, on the Kennet, there have been otters for over 30 years, rarely seen and no problem. 3 or 4 years ago otter numbers increased fairly dramatically. From seeing only 2 otters in 40 years of fishing up to 3 years ago, since i have seen them on dozens of occasions, also seen more damaged Barbel, big chunks of tail lobes missing followed by fish vanishing. Tail lobs missing was for me anyway a very rarely seen event until the increase in otter numbers.

I certainly haven't fished the Kennet as long as you Robert but even over the past 5 years, my experience matches that you have described. It has been the last two years where I have noted a quite dramatic increase in sightings- almost always at night.

I have wondered, however, if this isn't more otters, just resident otter or otters needing to hunt more frequently and take more risks. The quite dramatic fall in barbel stocks would surely trigger a shift the otter's behaviour. It might be a simplistic view, but to my mind the natural evolution of this model, without intervention (systematic fish restocking), would be otters needing to expand their territories or moving large distances to find new hunting grounds and in doing so, the risk of an early death must surely increase (conflict with other otters or indeed something much larger, with metal doors and an engine).

Otter numbers would then naturally decline, unless of course they simply increased a switch to alternative food sources- birds etc. You might even imagine them going toe to toe with foxes in colonising our urban landscape.

In the meantime of course.....

Saying all that, in my view the otters on the Kennet are simply amplifying more profound issues such as over extraction to help meet the water demands of a growing population. What might help there is perhaps some sort of container, like a massive bucket, to help collect rain water.
 
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