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Otter petition.

  1. Many have not experienced the effect on rivers like the Kennet.

    At least the BS are finally trying to do something.

    Five years after they were told by me and others, with many on their Commitee then ignoring or denying the problem.

    But, as I said before, to have an effect, the initiatives should have started then.

    Press releases showing gutted fish, swans being attacked, fluffy ducklings being eaten, koi ponds with all the fish on the poolside etc.

    Throughout the media, all aspects from National Press to TV to Internet. A proper professional campaign with professional spokespeople.

    And meanwhile, YOUR representatives the Angling Trust with supposed political influence?

    After all this time? Splinters from the fence sitting.

    So, no wonder most anglers don't care apart from those affected.
 
Graham Elliott said:
  1. Many have not experienced the effect on rivers like the Kennet.

    At least the BS are finally trying to do something.

    Five years after they were told by me and others, with many on their Commitee then ignoring or denying the problem.

    But, as I said before, to have an effect, the initiatives should have started then.

    Press releases showing gutted fish, swans being attacked, fluffy ducklings being eaten, koi ponds with all the fish on the poolside etc.

    Throughout the media, all aspects from National Press to TV to Internet. A proper professional campaign with professional spokespeople.

    And meanwhile, YOUR representatives the Angling Trust with supposed political influence?

    After all this time? Splinters from the fence sitting.

    So, no wonder most anglers don't care apart from those affected.
Click to expand...
Best post so far IMO
 
The Angling Trust may have political influence but no politician or mainstream political party is going to ally themselves to a campaign for culling Otters . Plain fact is that unless otters start eating little kids the populus at large do not care that otters eat fish or indeed the odd swan or duckling . Generally anglers are perceived as odd ball types who sit around on rivers and ponds in the pouring rain trying to stick hooks in fish , most people couldn't give a monkeys that they are upset that otters eat fish . We can huff and puff all we like but a cull of otters will never happen
 
Mike Hodgkiss said:
The Angling Trust may have political influence but no politician or mainstream political party is going to ally themselves to a campaign for culling Otters . Plain fact is that unless otters start eating little kids the populus at large do not care that otters eat fish or indeed the odd swan or duckling . Generally anglers are perceived as odd ball types who sit around on rivers and ponds in the pouring rain trying to stick hooks in fish , most people couldn't give a monkeys that they are upset that otters eat fish . We can huff and puff all we like but a cull of otters will never happen
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Can I just ask please where has a cull of otters been mentioned?
 
No it doesn't mention the word cull in this petition , it does use the phrase' none lethal control' but doesn't explain what this means . However what most of those vocal about the otter' problem' want to happen is for otters to be culled , killed, call it what you will .
 
Mike Hodgkiss said:
No it doesn't mention the word cull in this petition , it does use the phrase' none lethal control' but doesn't explain what this means . However what most of those vocal about the otter' problem' want to happen is for otters to be culled , killed, call it what you will .
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Its obvious that those that have supported the petition are happy to wait to see what "none lethal" methods may be available and are not the ones calling for a cull, yes there are those that would like to see them culled but that sort of action will not ever be allowed.

As lethal means to kill I would have thought that "none lethal" would be the complete opposite to that, as to what methods of none lethal control will be asked for we have to wait and see but I am happy in the knowledge that it wont involve killing.
 
A fair point Graham . So what none lethal methods of control are there available ? The only one I can think of off the top of my head is some form of birth control for the otter population , how would that work ? Another form of control that has been mooted is a redistribution of the otter population . I can't see how that would work . Where would they be taken to ? Wherever they go they would still eat fish .
 
Haven’t posted for a while as I’ve been out on the banks of Avon and Stour with the camera more than the rods lately. I live on the Stour and see every morning 20 plus cormorants on the opposite pylons flying down onto the river pillaging fish stocks and often see otters . There is no doubt that predation is having a negative impact on stocks but so is abstraction and loss of habitat .
The recent photography hobby has seen me join numerous wildlife FB groups with massive membership numbers.
It has been interesting to see the absolute dislike of angling on these sites,.. and ignorance of our sport,.. but the fact remains that regardless of evidence of otter predation there will be a massive outcry to any perceived reduction in otter numbers because the general public do not regard fish as important as birds or mammals, even though there is plenty of evidence of otters predating on water fowl.
It seems we river anglers are stuck between a rock and a hard place but perhaps would be better advised to concentrate our efforts on the other issues that affect recruitment,... that’s a fight we could win unlike the otter debate.
 
Dave Taylor said:
Haven’t posted for a while as I’ve been out on the banks of Avon and Stour with the camera more than the rods lately. I live on the Stour and see every morning 20 plus cormorants on the opposite pylons flying down onto the river pillaging fish stocks and often see otters . There is no doubt that predation is having a negative impact on stocks but so is abstraction and loss of habitat .
The recent photography hobby has seen me join numerous wildlife FB groups with massive membership numbers.
It has been interesting to see the absolute dislike of angling on these sites,.. and ignorance of our sport,.. but the fact remains that regardless of evidence of otter predation there will be a massive outcry to any perceived reduction in otter numbers because the general public do not regard fish as important as birds or mammals, even though there is plenty of evidence of otters predating on water fowl.
It seems we river anglers are stuck between a rock and a hard place but perhaps would be better advised to concentrate our efforts on the other issues that affect recruitment,... that’s a fight we could win unlike the otter debate.
Click to expand...

The most sensible and balanced post on this thread, totally agree with you Dave.
 
Hi Shaun,.. hope you are keeping well my friend. If my post seemed defeatist, it was meant to.
I’ve tried to be upbeat about our rivers for years and long ago became weary of the constant negativity from some anglers which did nothing but harm to club membership numbers. That said,.. apathy coupled with years of deterioration of riverine habitat and flow regimes has potentially the same outcome imo.
Over a period of 30 plus years I’ve witnessed the deterioration of some of my favourite stretches of barbel rivers where abstraction, poor weir operation and increased boat usage have led to erratic flows, siltation and loss of ranunculus . Barbel roach and chub were in decline in those rivers before we had a hint of the influx of the otter.
Cormorants, signal crays and the otter have exasperated what has been staring us in the face, with new stocking of juvenile fish being nothing but a placebo in some cases.
Actually,.. this is all immaterial to many of my old friends as they can’t access their favourite rivers because of the floating pennywort!
Now I know you know all this but I need a rant every now and again!
“ Just how would you define a win” you ask,... well a “win” would be to make a difference,.. to have healthy natural recruitment ,.. and yes, less predation,... but the former would probably lead to more cormorants unless some effective control is sanctioned.
I’ve spent the day on the Avon with other like minded anglers doing a bit more work on a new Avon Roach Project fry bay. The dedication of some of those guys is inspiring and blows away some of the gloom I feel when opening the blinds every morning and seeing the cormorants.
As for the new hobby? Well let’s just say I’m currently finding it easier to snap an otter than catch a barbel, but angling remains my real passion.
 
Shaun Nurse said:
Post removed at request of the author. Andy F
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Ultimately there has to be a realisation that barbel fishing is not going to be the same again on many of the smaller rivers particularly in the south, we all know...recruitment has been very poor on may rivers for years and large year class gaps were appearing well before otters returned on the rivers. I remember corresponding with Ray Walton many years ago to ask him what he thought was happening on the Cherwell and his answer was the river is not suitable barbel habitat anymore and for me that was when the penny dropped. So yes the otters finished them off and stocking has brought small numbers back on the Cherwell but due to the stresses on the river now it would take a miracle to cure its ill's and removing otters would make little difference to the long term sustainability of a barbel population. (I mention the Cherwell because Lawrence Breakspeare did in the petition)

So I signed the petition, which I now regret and Dave's post I don't see it has defeated and resigned simply because he is being realistic in what he is saying. the barbel society have taken this militant stance because they think there is no other option, which is a shame because there is. I just wish the time and effort they are putting into this misguided adventure would be put into collaborating with the wider river conservation movement but ultimately there action through the petition may alienate them from ever doing so.

Fishing does move on and for the vast majority of anglers its not about barbel or even rivers for that matter. I live in Oxford and the rivers on my doorstep offer excellent fishing for all species its just a shame that barbel are not one of them even though the Thames has improved a lot over the last few years

So the picture you paint of our rivers is not the way I see it. it's not all doom and gloom, its not the end of river fishing, otters are not eating everything its just that fishing is not what you and the barbel society want it be.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Great posts Dave, I think we agree on far more (if not all) points!
Jason, your post has actually given me a little more optimism, thanks.
I am a volunteer for the bs and am also in touch regularly with researchers for the EA, the AT, and others more local to particular river catchments, river trusts etc. There are plenty of people out there trying hard to make that difference to our rivers, so my advice to all is keep up the good work, I think we all recognise many different issues facing our water.
 
Shaun Nurse said:
Great posts Dave, I think we agree on far more (if not all) points!
Jason, your post has actually given me a little more optimism, thanks.
I am a volunteer for the bs and am also in touch regularly with researchers for the EA, the AT, and others more local to particular river catchments, river trusts etc. There are plenty of people out there trying hard to make that difference to our rivers, so my advice to all is keep up the good work, I think we all recognise many different issues facing our water.
Click to expand...

agree shaun...keep up the good work...
 
Pretty much sums it up Jason. You have to question why some rivers are largely unaffected by otters in comparison to others, there has to be a reason other than otters.
I don't see how non lethal control is going to work, I think the petition is chancing it's arm a little as it sounds better than lethal control, yet nobody has any idea what this will entail or if it will work.
 
Graham Elliott said:
  1. Many have not experienced the effect on rivers like the Kennet.

    At least the BS are finally trying to do something.

    Five years after they were told by me and others, with many on their Commitee then ignoring or denying the problem.

    But, as I said before, to have an effect, the initiatives should have started then.

    Press releases showing gutted fish, swans being attacked, fluffy ducklings being eaten, koi ponds with all the fish on the poolside etc.

    Throughout the media, all aspects from National Press to TV to Internet. A proper professional campaign with professional spokespeople.

    And meanwhile, YOUR representatives the Angling Trust with supposed political influence?

    After all this time? Splinters from the fence sitting.

    So, no wonder most anglers don't care apart from those affected.
Click to expand...
While I was on the committee there was only one individual that would not/could not see what was happening...... you know who that was..... and unfortunately they,at that time,had the "power" to do what they wanted.
 
Slight change of subject, though relevant as this has moved on.
What outcomes from the Teme research. Seems to have been ages since it started. Any prelim info.

Anything that could show causative reasons for sudden barbel decline?

(Probably cant show flooding pushed them into Severn)
 
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