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not looking good, in fact it looks terrible

J

Jason Bean

Senior Member
This country and they way it is run is terrible, it seems politically there is no will power to address environmental issues in this country unless it makes money...but slowly we are going down the pan. We used to talk about being proud to be British and I used to think that was because we did things that needed to be done and we did them right. I really hope the generation of youth coming through now get a grip of what's going on before its too late.
 

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I was talking to another Barbel angler this morning whist walking the dogs...(ahem) and I mentioned this report that was on local TV news, he replied in the same way I have in the past that too clean rivers are not good fish environments. Apparently some of the top brains concur that a certain amount of suspended solids in water is a good thing, which certainly seems credible, as a kid my local Bristol Avon was filthy and yet the fishing was superb, match weights of over 100lbs were common, with mostly Bream. We all enthuse over a 'bit of colour' and personally I would not want to fish in 'tap water'. Of course there has to be a balance, pumping in raw sewage would not be good, but for us Anglers the ideal is somewhere in the centre ground I imagine.
 
That may be so, but various waters I fish are afflicted by the dreaded "storm overflows" .
After a spate the trees downstream look like christmas trees, only the decorations are sanitary products and those wretched "flushable" wipes.
In low flows there is still some untreated discharge, containing all what you'd expect.
It's an absolute disgrace, imo.
One in particular has been reported countless times to the EA in the last few years.
So far nothing has happened, and it's getting worse with increased building in the area leading to more strain on an already overstretched system.
 
Neil Smart said:
I was talking to another Barbel angler this morning whist walking the dogs...(ahem) and I mentioned this report that was on local TV news, he replied in the same way I have in the past that too clean rivers are not good fish environments. Apparently some of the top brains concur that a certain amount of suspended solids in water is a good thing, which certainly seems credible, as a kid my local Bristol Avon was filthy and yet the fishing was superb, match weights of over 100lbs were common, with mostly Bream. We all enthuse over a 'bit of colour' and personally I would not want to fish in 'tap water'. Of course there has to be a balance, pumping in raw sewage would not be good, but for us Anglers the ideal is somewhere in the centre ground I imagine.
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I really do find do find it odd that barbel anglers scream there heads off about otters but pollution is ok, maybe even good? Beyond belief, really does show their ignorance.
 
Ben Marr said:
That may be so, but various waters I fish are afflicted by the dreaded "storm overflows" .
After a spate the trees downstream look like christmas trees, only the decorations are sanitary products and those wretched "flushable" wipes.
In low flows there is still some untreated discharge, containing all what you'd expect.
It's an absolute disgrace, imo.
One in particular has been reported countless times to the EA in the last few years.
So far nothing has happened, and it's getting worse with increased building in the area leading to more strain on an already overstretched system.
Click to expand...
Thames catchment by any chance?
 
Jason Bean said:
I really do find do find it odd that barbel anglers scream there heads off about otters but pollution is ok, maybe even good? Beyond belief, really does show their ignorance.
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Wind your neck in Julian, no need to twist things, I was not advocating pollution in rivers, but stating a pretty common observation that ultra clean rivers can be a poor environment for some species.
 
Jason Bean said:
This country and they way it is run is terrible, it seems politically there is no will power to address environmental issues in this country unless it makes money...but slowly we are going down the pan. We used to talk about being proud to be British and I used to think that was because we did things that needed to be done and we did them right. I really hope the generation of youth coming through now get a grip of what's going on before its too late.
Click to expand...
We'll your views that this country is going down the pan , how topical...You somehow manage to bring in other issues in regarded to broken Britain, as you see it, my God have you ever lived abroad ,seen the lack of sanitary control? You really are despairing of this country , you might want to consider your options, plenty have and many return.
 
You don't get it do you Neil, the most likely reason for the decline in the barbel population on a national level is pollution....whether that is sewage treatment works or agricultural and couple that with low flows it creates a terrible environment for fish to live in. So you can trivialise it all you like but the reason it happens is poor government that allows profit to be made at the expense of the environment. Hopefully articles such as these will create awareness within the general public and pressurise all those responsible to act.
 
Jason Bean said:
You don't get it do you Neil, the most likely reason for the decline in the barbel population on a national level is pollution....whether that is sewage treatment works or agricultural and couple that with low flows it creates a terrible environment for fish to live in. So you can trivialise it all you like but the reason it happens is poor government that allows profit to be made at the expense of the environment. Hopefully articles such as these will create awareness within the general public and pressurise all those responsible to act.
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As I keep reminding you Jason and others, the most up to date example on Otters versus pollution debate are the rivers Teme and Dove , both rivers are that clean they support both Brown Trout and the even more demanding Grayling, however the EA have launched and are conducting a study into declining barbel and chub numbers of the Dove, I don't think water quality will be a problem, do you? 2 years ago the River Teme was subject to a fairly in depth Phd study into declining barbel numbers by Dr Katty Guttman Roberts, it was funded by the EA, the Severn Rivers trust, the Barbel Society and Angling Trust the study basically concluded there isn't a problem with the Temes water and environmental quality, its that there are not enough barbel to breed, barbel fry counts and survival rates were abysmal, last night on the BBC an EA representative said some of our rivers are and have improved that much, Otter numbers are increasing, which proves water quality is good, so they say.....and we wonder why barbel numbers are declining. So, according to the EA, Otter numbers are increasing because of improved water and environmental quality, but, barbel numbers are falling, you say the reason for falling barbel numbers is poor water and environmental quality, confused.com here mate.

The Dove and the Teme may have declining barbel numbers, but their otter numbers increase yearly. I see a connection. Thanks for your comments.
 
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Lawrence Breakspear said:
I keep reminding you Jason and others with the most up to date example are the rivers Teme and Dove , both rivers are that clean they support both Brown Trout and the even more demanding Grayling, however the EA have launched and are conducting a study into declining barbel and chub numbers of the Dove, I don't think water quality isn't a problem, 2 years ago the River Teme was subject to a Phd study into declining barbel numbers by Katty Guttman Roberts, funded by the EA, the Severn Rivers trust, the Barbel Society and Angling Trust the study basically concluded there isn't a problem with the Temes water and environmental quality, its that there are not enough barbel to breed, last night on the BBC an EA representative said some of our rivers are and have improved that much Otter numbers are increasing, which proves water quality is good.....and we wonder why barbel numbers are declining. The Dove and the Teme may have declining barbel numbers, but their otter numbers increase yearly. Thanks for your comments.
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I think the Loz is where we have 2 different regions with 2 different problems. So when you include Cherwell, Windrush and Ouse within argument you set out they don't fit and perhaps vice versa when I include your region in mine.

However I always thought the Teme was a very polluted river with agricultural run off?
 
I've mentioned on here before I have a friend who tests river water quality for several suppliers in the South West and Midlands regions (so your Wessex, Thames, Southern etc), and between early-mid 00s up until very recently (say 2016/17) water quality in all of those areas was, for the mostpart, better than it had been for decades previous, and there was a huge increase in the variety of water based and bankside vegetation as a result, along with a general increase in the associated wildlife. In the last couple of years (coincidence or not, since water and sewerage were deregulated - anything familiar there? cough-gasandelectric-cough), however, there has been a massive increase in major pollution incidents all over the country and water quality has dropped off a cliff - my friend said the shortest and sharpest decline they've seen since records from the second world war, at least in terms of general nationwide water quality.

I don't believe for one second that bad water quality is good for fish or fishing, and the barbel decline is, I think, a completely separate issue. The former can, I think, be simply explained by the massive drop in number of people fishing the rivers, with far less bait going in on a much reduced regularity, so of course 100lb match weights aren't going to be a thing (at least in rivers) now. Otherwise one cannot argue with the fact that silvers and eels have made a huge comeback in many rivers over the last decade or so, and we all know that lots of silvers and eels = good water quality and a healthy and balanced ecological system. Ditto grayling making a comeback in many rivers as well, as Lawrence mentioned above.

As for the barbel - I've said before I don't believe otters are solely to blame for the decline. I think just as much blame can be apportioned to almost annual flash floods over the last 10+ years, subsequent gaps in year class, and a huge drop-off in the amount of barbel fry being stocked (go back to the 80s and 90s and the EA were stocking many of the main rivers on a fairly regular basis. These days your Hampshire Avons, Wyes and Severns might get a few hundred fry every two or three years?), not to mention, again, the lower number of people fishing for them, so they simply don't get caught as much.

I think (the royal) you need to be careful about dismissing this new wave of pollution as a minor concern, even worse marketing it as a "good thing" - lest we forget there's a lot more going on in and around our rivers than just our fishing...
 
Jason Bean said:
no...what I'm saying is, those rivers are in virtually no fit state to support barbel now regardless of the damage otters or any predators do.
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But, this is my argument, the EA last night said that one of the best indicators for improved water and environmental quality was the Otter. I know a fishery manager on Trout fishery on the Windrush that has to now stock 40% more Trout into the stretch he runs to basically buy the Otters off, the stretch he runs, 8 years ago had double figure barbel, 6lb chub, double figure pike, big dace etc. he now has about 5 otters that work his beat, all the big barbel have gone, as have the chub and pike, the Otters have had them, on one occasion, on one night two barbel were taken, and were found mutilated on the bank, one at approx 12lb and he other being possibly 11 pound, those barbel had been resident on that stretch for years, he then started to lose big trout, hence his stocking response. But as he said, he cant keep that up as its economically non viable, its a self fulfilling prophecy Jason. Its not all about barbel.
 
in that scenario its hardly surprising he is being hammered by otters, more fool him for feeding them.

and I will take the 5 otters with a pinch of salt unless its a family together

and I know a lot of guys that fish the windrush still... in the main there's not a lot in there. The upper river is in reasonable condition but as you go down it gets worst and by the time it reaches the Thames its almost dries up from gravel extraction , but there are pockets of fish all the way through including big barbel, its a typical Thames tributary.
 
The last count was 3 pups, a dog and a bitch, its the same every year, the dog kicks the pups out and it starts again...., its his living Jason, this is a man who is on his river 24/7, he has seen his beat destroyed by otters. This is a river were barbel are indigenous. But you are entitled to your views.
 
Lawrence.
What was your view on the close season. Do you believe that anglers would have caused reduced barbel spawning as per EA view?

For barbel many agree a later end date would have been better.....maybe not for other fish though.

I remember well the campaigning with dear old Fred Crouch and the photo outside no 10 in the past.

Did the BS have a view.
Did you have a view?
 
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