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Milk based HNV baits ?
- Thread starter Joe Fletcher
- Start date
No John - more that the majority of the fish in the Bristol Avon were killed by otters 
Jeff Edisbury
Senior Member
Hi Andy,
I was always told never to freeze Milk Proteins as it "denatured" the bait and made it less effective?
Does anyone know if there is any merit in this or is it an old wives tale?
Cheers,
Jeff
I was always told never to freeze Milk Proteins as it "denatured" the bait and made it less effective?
Does anyone know if there is any merit in this or is it an old wives tale?
Cheers,
Jeff
Damian Kimmins
Senior Member
Freezing denatures everything doesn't it?
David Gauntlett
Senior Member
I don't know Jeff. The fish certainly didn't mind at the time. If I'd made it up fresh before every session I'd have never got to the river...
It'd be interesting to hear if anyone else freezes their milks.
It'd be interesting to hear if anyone else freezes their milks.
David Gauntlett
Senior Member
I think the point is that although freezing and boiling DOES adversely affect protein to some extent, done sensibly neither processes destroy it completely. If it did, we would all be dead by now. A huge percentage of our foodstuff is frozen before we get it, whether it is bought as frozen or not...and the vast majority of it is cooked by the time we eat it as well. Bearing in mind that ingesting viable protein is necessary for us humans to survive sort of puts it into perspective, does it not?
People get too hung up on stuff they read, rumours spread by sensationalists and those with vested interests....and bait is the biggest hang up we anglers agonise about. HNV baits work, that is a fact. Milk protein baits work very well indeed, that also is a fact...despite all the anglers worries about storage etc.
Surely, all we require of a bait is that they work, that they catch fish. Once we have established that the bait we are using catches fish, and is as good or even better at that than our previous bait...then should that not be the point where we stop worrying about it? We would still have the worry about where best to place our bait, and about whether our water craft to scratch...and not forgetting the TRULY worrying question of whether we have the right landing net handle or not, so we are hardly likely to pass away through lack of things to worry about
What a daft lot we are
Cheers, Dave
People get too hung up on stuff they read, rumours spread by sensationalists and those with vested interests....and bait is the biggest hang up we anglers agonise about. HNV baits work, that is a fact. Milk protein baits work very well indeed, that also is a fact...despite all the anglers worries about storage etc.
Surely, all we require of a bait is that they work, that they catch fish. Once we have established that the bait we are using catches fish, and is as good or even better at that than our previous bait...then should that not be the point where we stop worrying about it? We would still have the worry about where best to place our bait, and about whether our water craft to scratch...and not forgetting the TRULY worrying question of whether we have the right landing net handle or not, so we are hardly likely to pass away through lack of things to worry about
What a daft lot we are
Cheers, Dave
David Gauntlett
Senior Member
Sorry, double post. I think that was because I was worrying about the fact that my first post was shorter than usual. Can anyone tell me what the best post length is please...that worries me a lot. Cough.
Not at all sure whether this post was a good idea, all things considered, lol. Which is very worrying.
Cheers, Dave.
Not at all sure whether this post was a good idea, all things considered, lol. Which is very worrying.
Cheers, Dave.
Hi men ,
I was joint RO for the carp society for bedfordshire , and we had a few bait experts do shows for us . The most in depth was Cotswold Baits , some of their ingrediants, liquis, and thoughts were a bit advanced for most normal carpers , but it was at one of our meetings that a company told us they used to freeze their baits even if the did not need to just so that in the thawing it used to kick start it's attraction ?. Can't remember who said it , or even if there was a scientific theory behind it .
Dave , best post length is more than one word , but less that a full page , you do ok mate !.
Hatter
I was joint RO for the carp society for bedfordshire , and we had a few bait experts do shows for us . The most in depth was Cotswold Baits , some of their ingrediants, liquis, and thoughts were a bit advanced for most normal carpers , but it was at one of our meetings that a company told us they used to freeze their baits even if the did not need to just so that in the thawing it used to kick start it's attraction ?. Can't remember who said it , or even if there was a scientific theory behind it .
Dave , best post length is more than one word , but less that a full page , you do ok mate !.
Hatter
John Walker
Senior Member
dave, the best post lengthis when the post when stuck in the ground ends up higher than the fence mate
Steve Shenfield
Active Member
John, they now supply Pro-val.
Joe Fletcher
No Longer a Member
Has any one tried steaming their baits ? They reckon steaming vegetables is better than boiling .So why not steam your baits ?
D
Deleted member 1090
Guest
The mrs steams the veg and I love em
Stuart Brookes
Senior Member
I steamed a batch of bait I made up last year, stops you losing as much flavour as boiling
Jon Whelan
Senior Member
Evening all,
Interesting thread. Protein denaturation - there's a throw back to my biology college days. Wiki amply describes this well:
"Denaturation is a process in which proteins or nucleic acids lose the quaternary structure, tertiary structure and secondary structure which is present in their native state, by application of some external stress or compound such as a strong acid or base, a concentrated inorganic salt, an organic solvent (e.g., alcohol or chloroform), radiation or heat.[3] If proteins in a living cell are denatured, this results in disruption of cell activity and possibly cell death. Denatured proteins can exhibit a wide range of characteristics, from conformational change and loss of solubility to communal aggregation."
Simply put, the more complexed proteins have tertiary & quaternary shape that serves its function. The shape is held together by bonds which can be potentially broken when energised, which in turn can make certain protein strands (peptides) insoluble. Consequently this can in some cases make some insoluble proteins difficult to digest ie be broken down by enzymes and so to allow passage from the gut into the blood stream for the use in the body.
Another angle is that some amino acids are very sensitive to heat (or energy) & are damaged. If the damaged amino acid is considered 'essential' then your bait will always be lacking and cannot truly be considered balanced. For certain applications, this can give an edge in pressurised waters so some say.
As suggested, consider just skinning your baits by lightly boiling/steaming or just air drying. Careful selection of certain ingredients negate the use of boiling altogether. Thats why simple paste is much better but it’s getting the consistency right to know it’s still on the hook/hair...
Tried a variety of approaches myself, but can be a yellow brick road & kind of come round that lifes too short & place a bait in the right place in the right time is by far the most important
Any thoughts on the above appreciate & hope it helps
Cheers, Jon
Interesting thread. Protein denaturation - there's a throw back to my biology college days. Wiki amply describes this well:
"Denaturation is a process in which proteins or nucleic acids lose the quaternary structure, tertiary structure and secondary structure which is present in their native state, by application of some external stress or compound such as a strong acid or base, a concentrated inorganic salt, an organic solvent (e.g., alcohol or chloroform), radiation or heat.[3] If proteins in a living cell are denatured, this results in disruption of cell activity and possibly cell death. Denatured proteins can exhibit a wide range of characteristics, from conformational change and loss of solubility to communal aggregation."
Simply put, the more complexed proteins have tertiary & quaternary shape that serves its function. The shape is held together by bonds which can be potentially broken when energised, which in turn can make certain protein strands (peptides) insoluble. Consequently this can in some cases make some insoluble proteins difficult to digest ie be broken down by enzymes and so to allow passage from the gut into the blood stream for the use in the body.
Another angle is that some amino acids are very sensitive to heat (or energy) & are damaged. If the damaged amino acid is considered 'essential' then your bait will always be lacking and cannot truly be considered balanced. For certain applications, this can give an edge in pressurised waters so some say.
As suggested, consider just skinning your baits by lightly boiling/steaming or just air drying. Careful selection of certain ingredients negate the use of boiling altogether. Thats why simple paste is much better but it’s getting the consistency right to know it’s still on the hook/hair...
Tried a variety of approaches myself, but can be a yellow brick road & kind of come round that lifes too short & place a bait in the right place in the right time is by far the most important
Any thoughts on the above appreciate & hope it helps
Cheers, Jon
David Gauntlett
Senior Member
Joe, there has been more than one bait company that popped up out of the blue that steamed their baits, swore steamed baits were the best thing since sliced bread. Not sure if any of them are still around though....
Crazes come, crazes go...it would be interesting to know if steaming was an improvement or not. Somehow I doubt it. Some prefer to boil just long enough to 'skin' their bates, leaving them with a soft centre. The idea being that the tough skin was still enough to deter small fish, but the short cook time meant the centre had not reached a high enough temperature to damage the protein. Worked too...but I wouldn't suggest trying it in waters with crays present
Most carpers did a lot of experimenting, but beyond that there are some exceptionally knowledgeable bait 'brains' out there who achieved a lot over the years. Their best baits WILL catch more than poor quality baits if trialled next to each other in low stock carp waters...at a price. But there are NO magic baits, just the good, the bad...and the total crud...simple as that in my opinion. Whether the investment in money and time required to achieve a top grade bait is worth it when barbel are the quarry is up to the individual to decide.
It's interesting, and great fun experimenting...but it's a young or single mans game. No missus to complain about the smells and mess, or the fact that the majority of your time and income disappears into the black hole of the search for the holy grail is a true asset
Cheers, Dave.
Crazes come, crazes go...it would be interesting to know if steaming was an improvement or not. Somehow I doubt it. Some prefer to boil just long enough to 'skin' their bates, leaving them with a soft centre. The idea being that the tough skin was still enough to deter small fish, but the short cook time meant the centre had not reached a high enough temperature to damage the protein. Worked too...but I wouldn't suggest trying it in waters with crays present
Most carpers did a lot of experimenting, but beyond that there are some exceptionally knowledgeable bait 'brains' out there who achieved a lot over the years. Their best baits WILL catch more than poor quality baits if trialled next to each other in low stock carp waters...at a price. But there are NO magic baits, just the good, the bad...and the total crud...simple as that in my opinion. Whether the investment in money and time required to achieve a top grade bait is worth it when barbel are the quarry is up to the individual to decide.
It's interesting, and great fun experimenting...but it's a young or single mans game. No missus to complain about the smells and mess, or the fact that the majority of your time and income disappears into the black hole of the search for the holy grail is a true asset
Cheers, Dave.
Jon Whelan
Senior Member
Regarding freezing of proteins - not certain on this but if the protein based food (containing fresh amino acids) are undamaged prior to freezing, then I don't think that freezing effects the protein structure that much. For instance, cryopreservation of tissues from semen to ovarian tissues although obviously science is using gear a bit better than our burger preserving freezers...
Freezing probably disrupts more cell function using our crude tools. For the purpose of keeping proteins digestible for our ingredients/made bait I don't think freezing for a few months has a discernible effect - anyone that could point out the flaw in this appreciated.
There is always the mantra that fresh is best...
Freezing probably disrupts more cell function using our crude tools. For the purpose of keeping proteins digestible for our ingredients/made bait I don't think freezing for a few months has a discernible effect - anyone that could point out the flaw in this appreciated.
There is always the mantra that fresh is best...
Jon Whelan
Senior Member
It's interesting, and great fun experimenting...but it's a young or single mans game. No missus to complain about the smells and mess, or the fact that the majority of your time and income disappears into the black hole of the search for the holy grail is a true asset
How very true. And furthermore, you can spend more time making the bait than just getting on with the fishing...
David Gauntlett
Senior Member
Again very true Jon. There are a number of commercial baits out there that could fairly be described as not HNV, but high enough in usable protein and solubles to be highly attractive, and readily digestible and satisfying enough to keep fish coming back for more. It would seem to me that once the passion for bait making has lost it's shine, using such baits, and spending the time saved in putting them in the right place is, as you say, the way to go.
Cheers, Dave.