Machine wash....or not?

[David Gauntlett]

O.K....I have now googled this....which is what I perhaps should have done in the first place, rather than hassle you guys

There is absolutely loads of info out there, although I might add that what I waded through before my eyes went wonky was all anecdotal stuff in forums such as ours...although some was on trecking or forces type forums which seemed pretty authoritative.

The consensus was...
(a) You absolutely MUST wash youre Goretex garments regularly.
(b) Washing machines with all visible detergent removed are fine.
(c) You must NOT use detergents.
(d) Nikwax or similar cleaning products (Tech Wash) are good...soap is OK.
(e) Nikwax or similar WASH-IN reproofing products were not as good as their SPRAY-ON reproofers, because they can block the pores of the inner Goretex membrane.

Update to note (e) above
Since writing the above notes derived from the internet, I have had a long chat with the owner of an angling and outdoor sports shop which sells large amounts of Goretex, non Goretex, and waxed cotton garments to suit most outdoor activities. During the many years he has been making his living in this way, he has necessarily discussed with the manufacturers the various proofing products available....and which of those they recommend for their products (which naturally includes those used in the manufacturing process) He entirely agrees with the points in my notes above, with the exception of (e), which he states is certainly not true.

On the other hand, one of the big online stores who repair and reproof Goretex clothing themselves DO recommend the use of the SPRAY-ON version of the product they use (Graingers, which is similar to Nikwax), rather than the WASH-IN, for Goretex or similar garments!!!

So...the jury is still out. However, the information provided by my friend is good enough for me, so I shall now try the WASH-IN Nikwax TX Direct....with my fingers firmly crossed....

------------------------------------------------------------------

It would seem that the Goretex membrane is laminated onto the inside of the garment's outer fabric. The Goretex membrane has many tiny pores, which allow sweat to escape outwards...but will not let the larger water molecules seep in. Hence it's great waterproof and breathable nature. In time these pores can become blocked with dirt, and obviously thus render the membrane non breathable. Washing will cure this problem.

The outer fabric is treated with a breathable proofing agent, which is what causes the water to 'bead' and run off of the outer surface. Again, this proofing is rendered ineffective once too much dirt has stuck to it, and the outer fabric can 'soak out'. Once this happens, the whole garment is once again robbed of it's 'breathability', although the inner Goretex membrane will still not allow this water through to the body.

Its seems that once the breathability is destroyed by either method, the humidity inside the garment condenses on the inside of the Goretex layer (because it can no longer escape). The wetness caused by this condensation can apparently be quite considerable, and give the false impression that the garment has broken down and started to leak...when in fact if it were washed, thus restoring the breathability (and the outer reproofed if required) the garment would be as good as new

Assuming all this to be true, I do hope that not too many folk dumped a perfectly good Goretex, wrongly assuming that the thing was knackered

Anyway, once I have the required, I am going to wash my gear in my machine, using Tech Wash (having removed all possible detergent, and run the machine empty first)...and see what happens. I will report back, either way

Many thanks for all the replies and help...you are a great bunch of guys.

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Ian Crook]

Yes, that's exactly what I meant Dave

 

[Mike Webb]

Seems like a lot of hassle for a coat. I just wear a wax and when I get too warm I unzip the front.

 

[David Gauntlett]

Seems like a lot of hassle for a coat. I just wear a wax and when I get too warm I unzip the front.

Ah...but then I have been down the Barbour route. They are indeed decent coats, though I didn't ever find them as warm or waterproof as a good Goretex. Also, they too require maintainance if they are to last. Cleaning and re-waxing a Barbour style coat is equally as much a pain in the butt as maintaining a goretex....been there, done that...got the bucket of sweat and knackered hair dryer to prove it

Look at it this way...if waxed cotton garments were as good and user friendly as Goretex, then why do the armed forces use Goretex Nothing is perfect, but some things come closer than others

Cheers, Dave.

 

[David Gauntlett]

Yes, that's exactly what I meant Dave

Spot on Ian

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Mike Webb]

Look at it this way...if waxed cotton garments were as good and user friendly as Goretex, then why do the armed forces use Goretex Nothing is perfect, but some things come closer than others

Cheers, Dave.

I do agree Dave. I own a goretex but don't always wear it because I've had the hassle of having to run the washing machine empty, washing using pure soap and using Nikwax etc. The 'waterproofness' of my goretex has never reached the level that it was when new. I tend to use the barbour when it's not too cold and if I think there's a good chance that I'm going to get dirty because, frankly, I don't care if the barbour gets dirty.
One day someone will invent a material like goretex, which can be sponged down or machine-washed without any hassle, hopefully.

Regards

Mike

 

[David Gauntlett]

I do agree Dave. I own a goretex but don't always wear it because I've had the hassle of having to run the washing machine empty, washing using pure soap and using Nikwax etc. The 'waterproofness' of my goretex has never reached the level that it was when new. I tend to use the barbour when it's not too cold and if I think there's a good chance that I'm going to get dirty because, frankly, I don't care if the barbour gets dirty.
One day someone will invent a material like goretex, which can be sponged down or machine-washed without any hassle, hopefully.

Regards

Mike

Mike, I gather that things are developing ....if you find them first, give me a bell, if I find them, I will bell you.........oh happy days

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Jim Foxall]

O.K....I have now googled this....which is what I perhaps should have done in the first place, rather than hassle you guys

There is absolutely loads of info out there, although I might add that what I waded through before my eyes went wonky was all anecdotal stuff in forums such as ours...although some was on trecking or forces type forums which seemed pretty authoritative.

The consensus was...
(a) You absolutely MUST wash youre Goretex garments regularly.
(b) Washing machines with all visible detergent removed are fine.
(c) You must NOT use detergents.
(d) Nikwax or similar cleaning products (Tech Wash) are good...soap is OK.
(e) Nikwax or similar WASH-IN reproofing products were not as good as their SPRAY-ON reproofers, because they can block the pores of the inner Goretex membrane.

It would seem that the Goretex membrane is laminated onto the inside of the garment's outer fabric. The Goretex membrane has many tiny pores, which allow sweat to escape outwards...but will not let the larger water molecules seep in. Hence it's great waterproof and breathable nature. In time these pores can become blocked with dirt, and obviously thus render the membrane non breathable. Washing will cure this problem.

The outer fabric is treated with a breathable proofing agent, which is what causes the water to 'bead' and run off of the outer surface. Again, this proofing is rendered ineffective once too much dirt has stuck to it, and the outer fabric can 'soak out'. Once this happens, the whole garment is once again robbed of it's 'breathability', although the inner Goretex membrane will still not allow this water through to the body.

Its seems that once the breathability is destroyed by either method, the humidity inside the garment condenses on the inside of the Goretex layer (because it can no longer escape). The wetness caused by this condensation can apparently be quite considerable, and give the false impression that the garment has broken down and started to leak...when in fact if it were washed, thus restoring the breathability (and the outer reproofed if required) the garment would be as good as new

Assuming all this to be true, I do hope that not too many folk dumped a perfectly good Goretex, wrongly assuming that the thing was knackered

Anyway, once I have the required, I am going to wash my gear in my machine, using Tech Wash (having removed all possible detergent, and run the machine empty first)...and see what happens. I will report back, either way

Many thanks for all the replies and help...you are a great bunch of guys.

Cheers, Dave.

Very well researched. It was always my understanding that Goretex is simply a porous membrane, made of PTFE, sandwiched inside the jacket.
One of the main areas of breakdown are the seams letting in water- nothing to do with the Goretex. All the advice about cleaning and waterproofing refer to the outer shell of the garment. PTFE (Goretex) being totally inert cannot be chemically damaged by washing powders etc. However the membrane's pores can be physically blocked or the membrane physically damaged as Jon Frisby pointed out. Since the membrane is under the shell of the jacket and if the outer shell becomes porous then muck can find its way through, to coat the Goretex membrane, reducing its effectiveness.

 

[Jim Foxall]

Ah...but then I have been down the Barbour route. They are indeed decent coats, though I didn't ever find them as warm or waterproof as a good Goretex. Also, they too require maintainance if they are to last. Cleaning and re-waxing a Barbour style coat is equally as much a pain in the butt as maintaining a goretex....been there, done that...got the bucket of sweat and knackered hair dryer to prove it

Look at it this way...if waxed cotton garments were as good and user friendly as Goretex, then why do the armed forces use Goretex Nothing is perfect, but some things come closer than others

Cheers, Dave.

I think that you have made the point. Wax proofing is excellent, but time- consuming. The Forces haven't the time for the hassle of waxing . Doesn't mean to say that Goretex is better. It all depends what you are looking for. I like the robustness and water repellancy of waxed garments, but I do appreciate the benefits of Goretex for those individuals that perspire a lot.

 

[David Gauntlett]

I think that you have made the point. Wax proofing is excellent, but time- consuming. The Forces haven't the time for the hassle of waxing . Doesn't mean to say that Goretex is better. It all depends what you are looking for. I like the robustness and water repellancy of waxed garments, but I do appreciate the benefits of Goretex for those individuals that perspire a lot.

Fair comment Jim.

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Adrian Williams]

I hand wash mine in plain water repeating as many time as necessary until the water runs clear. I do this once a year in the first week of the close whether it needs it or not. It might not be the best way of doing the job but it works for me.

 

[David Gauntlett]

O.K....I have now googled this....which is what I perhaps should have done in the first place, rather than hassle you guys

There is absolutely loads of info out there, although I might add that what I waded through before my eyes went wonky was all anecdotal stuff in forums such as ours...although some was on trecking or forces type forums which seemed pretty authoritative.

The consensus was...
(a) You absolutely MUST wash youre Goretex garments regularly.
(b) Washing machines with all visible detergent removed are fine.
(c) You must NOT use detergents.
(d) Nikwax or similar cleaning products (Tech Wash) are good...soap is OK.
(e) Nikwax or similar WASH-IN reproofing products were not as good as their SPRAY-ON reproofers, because they can block the pores of the inner Goretex membrane.

Update to note (e) above
Since writing the above notes derived from the internet, I have had a long chat with the owner of an angling and outdoor sports shop which sells large amounts of Goretex, non Goretex, and waxed cotton garments to suit most outdoor activities. During the many years he has been making his living in this way, he has necessarily discussed with the manufacturers the various proofing products available....and which of those they recommend for their products (which naturally includes those used in the manufacturing process) He entirely agrees with the points in my notes above, with the exception of (e), which he states is certainly not true.

On the other hand, one of the big online stores who repair and reproof Goretex clothing themselves DO recommend the use of the SPRAY-ON version of the product they use (Graingers, which is similar to Nikwax), rather than the WASH-IN, for Goretex or similar garments!!!

So...the jury is still out. However, the information provided by my friend is good enough for me, so I shall now try the WASH-IN Nikwax TX Direct....with my fingers firmly crossed....

------------------------------------------------------------------

It would seem that the Goretex membrane is laminated onto the inside of the garment's outer fabric. The Goretex membrane has many tiny pores, which allow sweat to escape outwards...but will not let the larger water molecules seep in. Hence it's great waterproof and breathable nature. In time these pores can become blocked with dirt, and obviously thus render the membrane non breathable. Washing will cure this problem.

The outer fabric is treated with a breathable proofing agent, which is what causes the water to 'bead' and run off of the outer surface. Again, this proofing is rendered ineffective once too much dirt has stuck to it, and the outer fabric can 'soak out'. Once this happens, the whole garment is once again robbed of it's 'breathability', although the inner Goretex membrane will still not allow this water through to the body.

Its seems that once the breathability is destroyed by either method, the humidity inside the garment condenses on the inside of the Goretex layer (because it can no longer escape). The wetness caused by this condensation can apparently be quite considerable, and give the false impression that the garment has broken down and started to leak...when in fact if it were washed, thus restoring the breathability (and the outer reproofed if required) the garment would be as good as new

Assuming all this to be true, I do hope that not too many folk dumped a perfectly good Goretex, wrongly assuming that the thing was knackered

Anyway, once I have the required, I am going to wash my gear in my machine, using Tech Wash (having removed all possible detergent, and run the machine empty first)...and see what happens. I will report back, either way

Many thanks for all the replies and help...you are a great bunch of guys.

Cheers, Dave.

Ok...I have now treated my ex-mil. Goretex jacket and trousers, using Nikwax 'Tech Wash' to clean them, and Nikwax 'TX-Direct, Wash in' to reproof them.

I followed the instructions on the back of both tins as far as I could. The only one of these instruction that I was slightly dubious about was one of those on the 'TX-Direct' tin for the proofing, which read "use the setting for synthetics". Unfortunately, my machine does not have such a setting, so I used the 'coloureds' setting. This turned out to have a disappointingly short wash cycle (which was when the proofing agent should have been applied), which may have affected the results.

I placed both garments into the machine at the same time, again as per the instructions on the tin, but in future would probably do them one at a time.

I don't have a tumble dryer, so dried the garments by hanging them on a drying frame over one of the vents of my warm air central heating system.

The results

Once thoroughly dry, I sprayed both garments with water from a misting gun, whilst holding them in an upright position, as if they were being worn. The jacket beaded up nicely, and showed no sign of water absorbtion, and dried quickly. The trousers however, were a different story. The water on these beaded up slightly, but dark patches developed in numerous places, indicating that the fabric had absorbed some of the water. These dark areas felt damp to the touch after the beads were gone, and took a much longer time to dry than the jacket....not good!

I wondered whether perhaps the jacket had shrouded the trousers during the proofing process in the machine, so decided to attempt to reproof them again by hand in the sink (not something I would do if SWMBO were at home ) The instructions were to place the garment in 6 litres of warm water with 100ml of TX, agitate well by hand, then allow to soak in for 10 minutes, then agitate thoroughly again. I noticed that during the soaking in period, the TX substance fell out of suspension, looking a bit like curdled milk laying in the troughs, with clearish water elswhere ...whatever, it returned to a milk-like mix once I started the second period of agitating the whole lot by hand.

Sadly, the trousers were very little better after this second attempt As the Jacket responded well to the treatment, I can only assume that either the trousers were shrouded by the jacket during the washing process as well, and may benefit from another wash and then try reproofing again...or they have been contaminated by some substance at some time that stops the Nikwax proofer from adhering to the fabric (despite the fact that they were supposedly new when bought )

Obviously, you may draw whatever conclusions you like from this trial. It does seem an awful lot of trouble to go to, just to reach a 50% success rate...when others claim to achieve 100% success every time, with very little effort . The story of my life, I guess

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Adrian Cole]

Ok...I have now treated my ex-mil. Goretex jacket and trousers, using Nikwax 'Tech Wash' to clean them, and Nikwax 'TX-Direct, Wash in' to reproof them.

I followed the instructions on the back of both tins as far as I could. The only one of these instruction that I was slightly dubious about was one of those on the 'TX-Direct' tin for the proofing, which read "use the setting for synthetics". Unfortunately, my machine does not have such a setting, so I used the 'coloureds' setting. This turned out to have a disappointingly short wash cycle (which was when the proofing agent should have been applied), which may have affected the results.

I placed both garments into the machine at the same time, again as per the instructions on the tin, but in future would probably do them one at a time.

I don't have a tumble dryer, so dried the garments by hanging them on a drying frame over one of the vents of my warm air central heating system.

The results

Once thoroughly dry, I sprayed both garments with water from a misting gun, whilst holding them in an upright position, as if they were being worn. The jacket beaded up nicely, and showed no sign of water absorbtion, and dried quickly. The trousers however, were a different story. The water on these beaded up slightly, but dark patches developed in numerous places, indicating that the fabric had absorbed some of the water. These dark areas felt damp to the touch after the beads were gone, and took a much longer time to dry than the jacket....not good!

I wondered whether perhaps the jacket had shrouded the trousers during the proofing process in the machine, so decided to attempt to reproof them again by hand in the sink (not something I would do if SWMBO were at home ) The instructions were to place the garment in 6 litres of warm water with 100ml of TX, agitate well by hand, then allow to soak in for 10 minutes, then agitate thoroughly again. I noticed that during the soaking in period, the TX substance fell out of suspension, looking a bit like curdled milk laying in the troughs, with clearish water elswhere ...whatever, it returned to a milk-like mix once I started the second period of agitating the whole lot by hand.

Sadly, the trousers were very little better after this second attempt As the Jacket responded well to the treatment, I can only assume that either the trousers were shrouded by the jacket during the washing process as well, and may benefit from another wash and then try reproofing again...or they have been contaminated by some substance at some time that stops the Nikwax proofer from adhering to the fabric (despite the fact that they were supposedly new when bought )

Obviously, you may draw whatever conclusions you like from this trial. It does seem an awful lot of trouble to go to, just to reach a 50% success rate...when others claim to achieve 100% success every time, with very little effort . The story of my life, I guess

Cheers, Dave.

OK, sorry this far too late to save you any time or money. I have been motorcycling for 25+ years in all weathers and quality of clothing. In that time I think I have tried all forms of cleaners and re-proofers...none have ever achieved the quality of the original garments beading or proofness (not even close) and they defiantly do not last as long giving a couple of winter rides and the water just soaks in and passes through the gortex at the creases. The only garment I found to be worthy was a £2300 Rukka suit or £20 PVC chemical suit.

The Rukka suit remained waterproof in all conditions (remember this is on a motorcycle at speed) for almost 5 years with never being touched other than some light sponging whilst damp from a ride with no detergent to remove the road grime. It was then returned to the manufacturer with a slight weep at the crotch and was replaced FOC under the 5 year guarantee...you get what you pay for. The Chemical suit never leaked either but you did in it sweating your head off.

The only thing I never tried was to go to a dry cleaners and try them. I believe that most dry cleaners will offer a waterproof service to winter coats and you would expect this to be a 'industrial/professional' grade treatment. Remember Gortex cannot be dry cleaned so you would need to see if they can proof the garment only and whether it is compatible with Gortex.

I doubt that the latest Gortex technology had made it to fishing clothing yet if ever. The top end bike clothing now has the Gortex membrane laminated to the top layer of fabric, this means that even if the ability to bead water is reduced the membrane will still stop the water from soaking into the insulation layer leaving you with a wet heavy jacket that takes an age to dry.

Normal Gortex is a PTFE like membrane material that sown in behind the insulation layer, I've never understood this as whilst the jacket may keep you dry the outside layers and insulation gets soaked leaving you with the said wet heavy jacket that a pain and takes an age to dry.

This is my experience of Gortex clothing from a Motorcycling point of view and it may be wrong regards fishing garments but I doubt. When my time comes to consider wet gear for fishing then I will probably go for grade A Army surplus Gortex shell (like a over jacket & trousers) with quality layers underneath, these were about £50 last time I bought a set or an Ex army poncho for about £5 of eBay.

Cheers

Adie

 

[David Gauntlett]

OK, sorry this far too late to save you any time or money. I have been motorcycling for 25+ years in all weathers and quality of clothing. In that time I think I have tried all forms of cleaners and re-proofers...none have ever achieved the quality of the original garments beading or proofness (not even close) and they defiantly do not last as long giving a couple of winter rides and the water just soaks in and passes through the gortex at the creases. The only garment I found to be worthy was a £2300 Rukka suit or £20 PVC chemical suit.

The Rukka suit remained waterproof in all conditions (remember this is on a motorcycle at speed) for almost 5 years with never being touched other than some light sponging whilst damp from a ride with no detergent to remove the road grime. It was then returned to the manufacturer with a slight weep at the crotch and was replaced FOC under the 5 year guarantee...you get what you pay for. The Chemical suit never leaked either but you did in it sweating your head off.

The only thing I never tried was to go to a dry cleaners and try them. I believe that most dry cleaners will offer a waterproof service to winter coats and you would expect this to be a 'industrial/professional' grade treatment. Remember Gortex cannot be dry cleaned so you would need to see if they can proof the garment only and whether it is compatible with Gortex.

I doubt that the latest Gortex technology had made it to fishing clothing yet if ever. The top end bike clothing now has the Gortex membrane laminated to the top layer of fabric, this means that even if the ability to bead water is reduced the membrane will still stop the water from soaking into the insulation layer leaving you with a wet heavy jacket that takes an age to dry.

Normal Gortex is a PTFE like membrane material that sown in behind the insulation layer, I've never understood this as whilst the jacket may keep you dry the outside layers and insulation gets soaked leaving you with the said wet heavy jacket that a pain and takes an age to dry.

This is my experience of Gortex clothing from a Motorcycling point of view and it may be wrong regards fishing garments but I doubt. When my time comes to consider wet gear for fishing then I will probably go for grade A Army surplus Gortex shell (like a over jacket & trousers) with quality layers underneath, these were about £50 last time I bought a set or an Ex army poncho for about £5 of eBay.

Cheers

Adie

Hi Adie,

Thanks for that mate, you are probably right, but at £2300 ...I should hope it would last...that's nearly half of my yearly government pension

As for the Army surplus Goretex shell (like a over jacket and trousers) for £50 that you recommend....that's exactly what I have, as I said in my post....they ARE what this was all about....so I doubt you could have saved me a lot of money that way (Except my jacket was about £60, and the trousers £20 odd, or there abouts...I think ) The methods and the Nikwax reproofing stuff I used were as described on a military personel site, and a hikers/treckers site, amongst others.

As I said earlier, I am aware new developments are afoot....I just hope I get to see some of this new super gear before I pop my clogs...though I doubt I will be able to afford to actually own any, if they cost anything like your bike gear

Cheers, Dave.

 

[Adrian Cole]

As for the Army surplus Goretex shell (like a over jacket and trousers) for £50 that you recommend....that's exactly what I have, as I said in my post....they ARE what this was all about....so I doubt you could have saved me a lot of money that way (Except my jacket was about £60, and the trousers £20 odd, or there abouts...I think ) The methods and the Nikwax reproofing stuff I used were as described on a military personel site, and a hikers/treckers site, amongst others.

Cheers, Dave.

Sorry Dave, my fault. I thought the army surplus gear that was being talked about was the quilted or insulated type.

Cheers

Adie

 

[Jon Frisby]

I am not 100% sure here but all goretex is; is a PTFE membrane fixed between two fabric layers. I have used lots of goretex and when its new it does bead water off its layers. I believe its not the Goretex doing this its the outer fabrics properties. When your Gore garment gets older it tends not to bead off and the water soaks into the fabric only and does not go through the Gore membrane at all. I never machine wash my Gore garments at all as i do believe it does degrade the gore membrane, by hand and a brush IMO is the best way. If you do get a leak, it should be because there is a hole in the membrane, genarally caused by a a thorn, brambles etc. I have used my Gore in periods of extremely heavy rain and on the high seas working from boats for prolonged periods of time and have never been wet at all. What you do sometimes get is a bit of dampness on the inside of the garment, either by a very small leak or through perspiration, which in cold weather is the norm as the sweat wicks to the coldest area, which is the Gore garment.

Just my take on Goretex

 

[Adrian Cole]

Gore tex is a massive subject and receives pages of discussions on all outdoor type forums over care and reliability of waterproofness. Gore Tex own web site is pretty good. The latest variant of Gore Tex is 'Pro Shell' I believe.

Motorcycle related but gives an idea on Gore Tex Make up in clothing. http://www.revit.eu/en/#/goretexproducttechnologies



Cheers
Adie