Interesting Vid from Mark Tunley

[Richard Isaacs]

I think I get it!

Yeah it’s like taking two levers both identical in length but 1 is plastic one is wood.
With 1kg of force on the end the plastic one bends easily and the wood stays straight.
The leverage difference between them isn’t important here because 1kg isn’t enough to make the plastic one a solid lever

Add another kg and the plastic one bends and locks up. It’s now not flexible anymore and half the length of the wooden one.
Add another kg to the wooden one and it bends a bit, but because the length is now twice as long as the plastic, 2kg is applying a lot more force at the pivotal point of the wooden over the plastic

The whole softer = more pressure than stiffer is true but only when resistance to bending is no longer a factor. So hook pulls on a stiff rod over a soft rod makes perfect sense because it’s probably happening before the soft rod has locked up.

 

[Mark Pevy]

Yeah it’s like taking two levers both identical in length but 1 is plastic one is wood.
With 1kg of force on the end the plastic one bends easily and the wood stays straight.
The leverage difference between them isn’t important here because 1kg isn’t enough to make the plastic one a solid lever

Add another kg and the plastic one bends and locks up. It’s now not flexible anymore and half the length of the wooden one.
Add another kg to the wooden one and it bends a bit, but because the length is now twice as long as the plastic, 2kg is applying a lot more force at the pivotal point of the wooden over the plastic

The whole softer = more pressure than stiffer is true but only when resistance to bending is no longer a factor. So hook pulls on a stiff rod over a soft rod makes perfect sense because it’s probably happening before the soft rod has locked up.

Let's just go fishing

 

[Ian Grant]

Ian far be it from me to advise you but...think of it regarding the length of a lever the longer the length the greater the force ie leverage. A buckled rod tip reduces leverage.

I get the thinking, but just don’t agree ! Think of it this way, at one end you have the fishes lip the other you you have the reels clutch, and in between the line, maybe mono, maybe braid, depending on breaking strain of tge line, and the stretch or lack of it, the setting of the clutch, and the action of rod, all depend on how much pressure is on the fishes lip, the stiffer the action of the rod means that somewhere you have to compensate for that, the same could be said for fishing with braid, and possibly with a stiff action rod, yes you get more leverage, but having to compensate for the strain on the fishes lip means you negate that or risk tearing out because of excessive pressure, I prefer, and thought everyone else did too, to opt for an equilibrium, where there is give in set up, a rod that has a degree of give, a clutch setting that equates to the rods give, and considering the type of line, one of the most important to my mind, is the rod which will react to sudden pressure from lunges by the fish, i play my fish as hard as need be to stop runs etc, a fairly big hook, which has a deep firm grip, mono that stretches when needed, a rod that will react , accord to the pressure that’s put on it, and a clutch setting, that give line only when the strain on the set up, has reached maximum, that is before the fishes lip tears, it’s how I have by my set up, and using a much stiffer rod means somewhere along the line I have to compensate to prevent that happening, which may well mean giving the fish opportunity to dictate the fight, or face getting hook pulls, or B more likely the hook tearing out. I think I’ve explained that ok !!! Let me know if I haven’t

 

[Mike Hodgkiss]

Ian , I think you have summed up perfectly what is mean't by balanced tackle , I would also add that the use of mono mainline with its inherent stretchiness [ is that a word? ] also helps with playing fish in that it allows a certain give when a fish lunges , unlike braid which has no stretch and ,in my opinion is unsafe as its stated BS cannot be relied upon , hence anglers using high BS braid to compensate for this inherent unreliability . I prefer softer action / lower TC rods for the same reason , namely they have a bit of give in them , cane rods are particularly good at this , although they are poor at casting any lead over 2 ozs

 

[Ian Grant]

Watching the video again, I think Mark is not suggesting that you necessarily use a poker stiff rod, merely stating the physics of one extreme to the other, he says.... ' No ! You need to apply pressure on the fish to get it in the net ' Which is true ! .... suggesting a softer type rod to achieve that ( I still don't agree with his analogy by the way ).
The 'pressure' needed to bring a fish to the net is ( dependent on the fish being played of course ) a factor that fluctuates through the fight, his analogy of using a ' diamond stiff ' rod and relying on the clutch to give therefore preventing the hook tearing out is true I suppose ! But I think to demonstrate his point you could assume braid was being used so that the only give in this hypothetical analogy is the reels clutch.

I don't think he's suggesting fishing with this kind of set up, but having said that i think there are some who come pretty close, I've read that some anglers telling of their set ups for some rivers, are 3-1/2 lb TC rods, braid, and 8oz leads !!!! That leaves very little give in the set up, and would rely on the clutch or the angler cupping the spool, to absorb the pressure of sudden runs or lunges, and ok fair enough if the angler is skilled enough to do that.
But as Mark acknowledges the prime consideration whatever set up is being used is the fishes lip, being ultimately the weakest point from reel to hook, somewhere in the set up has to be compensation to relieve excessive pressure on the hook hold, or the fish will be lost due to the hook tearing out, the fishes lip will only sustain so much pressure, much of it very sudden, before damage other than the pin prick hole is caused or the hook tears out completely.
My set up is either a 1-3/4 TC or 2lb TC rod, ( same rods alternative tips built by our own Bob Gill ) 12lb Mono size 8 ESP hook ( about the size of the old size 6 ... I wish they wouldn't mess with sizes )
My PB caught last week was no spectacular fight for the majority of it, I was thinking good fish, but nothing really out of the ordinary, until it came to the surface and saw the net, when it made two deep powerful dives into the deep margins, on the mat the hook was buried to the bend, and on removal there was the pin prick hole you would expect, taking my eyes off it for a second or two, I checked again, and it took me a moment to find it again.
Conversely my previous PB fought like a demon, I have never had before or since a Barbel that pulled so hard from start to finish, a similarly small pin prick left by the hook, I wont say I've never had hook pulls, I have but they are very rare, and I put them down to those unfortunate times when the hook grips only a tiny portion of lip flesh, and there is the other factor in the equation, a weak hook hold with a stiff rod, and no give you'll lose the fish on the first decent pull.
So whilst I understand what Mark is saying I just don't agree that a stiff rod, and no give in the set up applies less pressure to the fish, just can't get my head round that one !!

 

[Richard Isaacs]

Watching the video again, I think Mark is not suggesting that you necessarily use a poker stiff rod, merely stating the physics of one extreme to the other, he says.... ' No ! You need to apply pressure on the fish to get it in the net ' Which is true ! .... suggesting a softer type rod to achieve that ( I still don't agree with his analogy by the way ).
The 'pressure' needed to bring a fish to the net is ( dependent on the fish being played of course ) a factor that fluctuates through the fight, his analogy of using a ' diamond stiff ' rod and relying on the clutch to give therefore preventing the hook tearing out is true I suppose ! But I think to demonstrate his point you could assume braid was being used so that the only give in this hypothetical analogy is the reels clutch.

I don't think he's suggesting fishing with this kind of set up, but having said that i think there are some who come pretty close, I've read that some anglers telling of their set ups for some rivers, are 3-1/2 lb TC rods, braid, and 8oz leads !!!! That leaves very little give in the set up, and would rely on the clutch or the angler cupping the spool, to absorb the pressure of sudden runs or lunges, and ok fair enough if the angler is skilled enough to do that.
But as Mark acknowledges the prime consideration whatever set up is being used is the fishes lip, being ultimately the weakest point from reel to hook, somewhere in the set up has to be compensation to relieve excessive pressure on the hook hold, or the fish will be lost due to the hook tearing out, the fishes lip will only sustain so much pressure, much of it very sudden, before damage other than the pin prick hole is caused or the hook tears out completely.
My set up is either a 1-3/4 TC or 2lb TC rod, ( same rods alternative tips built by our own Bob Gill ) 12lb Mono size 8 ESP hook ( about the size of the old size 6 ... I wish they wouldn't mess with sizes )
My PB caught last week was no spectacular fight for the majority of it, I was thinking good fish, but nothing really out of the ordinary, until it came to the surface and saw the net, when it made two deep powerful dives into the deep margins, on the mat the hook was buried to the bend, and on removal there was the pin prick hole you would expect, taking my eyes off it for a second or two, I checked again, and it took me a moment to find it again.
Conversely my previous PB fought like a demon, I have never had before or since a Barbel that pulled so hard from start to finish, a similarly small pin prick left by the hook, I wont say I've never had hook pulls, I have but they are very rare, and I put them down to those unfortunate times when the hook grips only a tiny portion of lip flesh, and there is the other factor in the equation, a weak hook hold with a stiff rod, and no give you'll lose the fish on the first decent pull.
So whilst I understand what Mark is saying I just don't agree that a stiff rod, and no give in the set up applies less pressure to the fish, just can't get my head round that one !!

The physics can’t be argued with that by pulling against a load (from the pivot point) with a shorter lever you are going to apply more pressure to that load than you would if the lever was longer.
That’s set in stone!

What makes things varied is all the other stuff. Like I said…. The levers resistance to bending before it’s locked up and like you rightly pointed out different lines and amounts of give in tackle.

What mark said is absolutely right because he talks about maximum pressure.

Two rods identically set up
1 is stiff 1 is soft.
Apply maximum pressure on both to lock both up and the softer rod will be applying more force on the load than the stiffer Rod simply because the length is reduced.

Other variables change things yes but mark was referring to maximum pressure only.

Now I do apply maximum pressure a lot when playing big fish. My torrix’s are constantly put under mega strain.
I absolutely can stop fish dead with them and can apply more stopping power to a fish than I could with a 2.25 for example provided that I’m applying maximum pressure and the lower tc rods have nothing more to give.

 

[Bob Watson]

He'd have been better using a casting rod and a through actioned rod of the same test curve. That test is totally at odds imo...

I think he's used extremes to prove the point.

I did a similar test in my back garden using my 1.75 and 1.25 chimeras. The gf said she felt more pull from the 1.25 when I applied equal pressure at the same time to both rods whilst she held the lines.

 

[Mike Hodgkiss]

If I am honest I don't really understand the physics of all this , the bit I think I understand is the effect of elasticity and 'give' in rods and lines when playing fish . I believe that using a bendy , all through action rod and monofilament main line [ not pre stretched or low stretch types] can be very effective in playing hard fighting fish ,plus a set up like this reduces hook pulls . I equate it to the fish having to pull against a giant elastic band , wears them down but cushions sudden lunges and runs . I like using split cane rods of the MK1V type for barbel , they bend extremely alarmingly but I can get fish to the net with them just as quickly as when using a modern carbon fibre rod . I remember a couple of years a go an experienced angler was watching me play a double figure Barbel on a MK1V cane Avon rod[ approx 1lb test curve ] , he freely admitted that he thought I had no chance of landing it and was just waiting for the rod to break , he was impressed that I got it in the net within 3 or 4 minutes . If I am honest I don't give em as much 'teddy ' [ as John Wilson used to say ] when using cane rods but I think that helps, as I believe the harder you pull the harder they pull back . All this said , cane rods are poor at casting heavy weights / fishing in high water fast flow conditions and are high maintainence when compared to carbon of fibreglass rods . I have only broken 2 cane rods when fishing , one snapped near the top section[ 3 piece rod ] when playing a medium sized barbel, in my anxiety to net the fish I had the rod way over the vertical and the strain was just too much . The other I broke when playing a big eel on the Wye , it just bust near the ferrule for no apparent reason , post mortem revealed that the cane under the ferrule was rotten . I just chopped it back and put a new ferrule on , bit stiffer but still going strong today !

 

[Tim Marks]

You should try fly fishing with ‘heavy‘ rods (11 wt and up) for really big fish…it is very instructive.

The rods (8ft 6” - 9ft) are designed to do two different jobs; first to cast and then to play fish. The top 4 -5 ft bends when you cast, the butt section doesn’t do much. If you make the rod tip too stiff then you struggle to cast a conventional fly line.

When you hook a big fish (eg a 100lb plus tarpon or a big GT for example) everything changes….you ignore the tip section and ‘play’ the fish with the bottom half of the rod. IF you stick the rod up in the air and bend the tip in a conventional way you simply break it…..ideally the rod stays low and sometimes up to half of it is underwater.

A talented and experienced angler can land huge fish remarkably quickly like this and you learn how hard it is possible to pull with a rod. Anglers like Andy Mill (legendary tarpon angler) can put 16lb pressure on a fish with the same gear that other people can only pull about 4lb. Bear in mind that competition fly fishing is limited to 10kg line (and a short shock tippet). Landing fish quickly in warm water is good news as the fish doesn’t get so tired.

You can take this to extremes and basically ignore the rod and simply play the fish with the reel - that technique was developed by people who fish for marlin etc on fly rods. A bit out of my league….

I laugh when I watch modern carp videos and anglers are using 13ft 4lb test curve rods and while they play fish only the top 18” bends….

Conversely if you use a lighter rod; you can effectively ‘stiffen it up’ by dropping the rod tip and utilising the butt of the rod - as per the fly rod experience quoted above. And a bit like what Mr Tunley is advocating.

 

[Paul Richardson]

Interesting 24 hours
River was up and likely to rise so I opted for C3s which will be the first time I’ve used them this season but rods I am very familiar with
Normal summer I prefer 1.25 Torrix which lean toward the “ soft” action when catching modest barbel
Fishing was good, not manic., but one of those rare sessions where the bites are consistently spaced e.g every 45-60 minutes
Long story short I reckon I had 7 or 8 hook pulls on the C3s!!!
Hooks all good, rigs virtually identical to the lighter set up bar the leads which are obviously heavier
Reels OCs but 6000 on the C3s 4000 on the 1.25 Torrix
I honestly won’t have had 6 hook pulls in 2 full seasons using the lighter Torrix!
Might have been me ?
And most of them came iof well into the fight, after the initial hook up and most of them mid river when normally it’s safe
The hooks just pulled?
My pal using a 2lb Torrix landed 95% of his fish
Interesting

 

[Richard Isaacs]

Interesting 24 hours
River was up and likely to rise so I opted for C3s which will be the first time I’ve used them this season but rods I am very familiar with
Normal summer I prefer 1.25 Torrix which lean toward the “ soft” action when catching modest barbel
Fishing was good, not manic., but one of those rare sessions where the bites are consistently spaced e.g every 45-60 minutes
Long story short I reckon I had 7 or 8 hook pulls on the C3s!!!
Hooks all good, rigs virtually identical to the lighter set up bar the leads which are obviously heavier
Reels OCs but 6000 on the C3s 4000 on the 1.25 Torrix
I honestly won’t have had 6 hook pulls in 2 full seasons using the lighter Torrix!
Might have been me ?
And most of them came iof well into the fight, after the initial hook up and most of them mid river when normally it’s safe
The hooks just pulled?
My pal using a 2lb Torrix landed 95% of his fish
Interesting

Imo Paul there’s something fundamentally wrong and I certainly wouldn’t say it’s a chimera no3
If it was then it’s a very very bad rod.

7 hook pulls is unheard of with barbel, I honestly don’t believe I’ve ever had 1 ever on the occasions I used my chimera 3’s and it’s banked afew fish

 

[Joe Winstanley]

Imo Paul there’s something fundamentally wrong and I certainly wouldn’t say it’s a chimera no3
If it was then it’s a very very bad rod.

7 hook pulls is unheard of with barbel, I honestly don’t believe I’ve ever had 1 ever on the occasions I used my chimera 3’s and it’s banked afew fish

C3's have so much cushioning and give in the butt section I'd say it nigh on impossible for it to be an issue with the rod. As Rich says, 7 hook pulls in a session from barbel is freakish, there has got to be something else going on.

 

[Tim Marks]

Completely agree with the previous 2 comments.

Im using a light (ish) Torrix this Summer and lost one the other day - that has never happened on my C’3’s !

 

[Paul Richardson]

Well it happened and it’s not my first rodeo
I’ve had literally hundreds of barbel on the C3 so no one more surprised than me??
Maybe just one of them days, possibly I wasn’t play them hard enough?
Still landed a good few and a 6lb chub so
Not a disaster

 

[Tim Marks]

Well it happened and it’s not my first rodeo
I’ve had literally hundreds of barbel on the C3 so no one more surprised than me??
Maybe just one of them days, possibly I wasn’t play them hard enough?
Still landed a good few and a 6lb chub so
Not a disaster

You catch more fish in one day than I catch in a season……..

 

[Paul Richardson]

You catch more fish in one day than I catch in a season……..

I don’t know about that Tim
I couldn’t catch a cold at the weekend and the big chub gave up otherwise that would have fell off I’m sure
Some days you know you’ve fished like a plonker but that wasn’t one of them and it started Friday night and continued Saturday.

Yorkshire rivers all seem to be fishing well
Certainly plenty of shoal barbel about but doubles are still special

 

[Ian Grant]

I don’t know about that Tim
I couldn’t catch a cold at the weekend and the big chub gave up otherwise that would have fell off I’m sure
Some days you know you’ve fished like a plonker but that wasn’t one of them and it started Friday night and continued Saturday.

Yorkshire rivers all seem to be fishing well
Certainly plenty of shoal barbel about but doubles are still special

My guess is spooky Barbel ! … for whatever reason ! Had you changed your rig were you experimenting with something ? Different rig or bait ? I guess not or you would have said, it may have been the swim, in fact I think it’s most likely with that many takes others probably know of it and fish it too, resulting in even average Barbel becoming spooky, I reckon nothing to do with the rod at all, the fish were just dead wary of fully taking the bait in resulting in very weak hook holds

 

[Paul Richardson]

My guess is spooky Barbel ! … for whatever reason ! Had you changed your rig were you experimenting with something ? Different rig or bait ? I guess not or you would have said, it may have been the swim, in fact I think it’s most likely with that many takes others probably know of it and fish it too, resulting in even average Barbel becoming spooky, I reckon nothing to do with the rod at all, the fish were just dead wary of fully taking the bait in resulting in very weak hook holds

Possibly Ian
I changed yesterday to 2lb Torrix which I have to be honest I wasn’t a fan of but I needed to cast biggish feeders
Same line & rigs & bait
Didn’t have one hook pull and I had a red letter day
Quite possibly just down to me as I’ve been off all week and felt dialled in yesterday
Last week was a Friday after a busy week at work, no sleep and an early start Saturday

Played the fish hard and despite being unfamiliar with the Torrix in that TC after a few fish I felt super confident and left with a completely different opinion of them

 

[Jon Frisby]

My guess is spooky Barbel ! … for whatever reason ! Had you changed your rig were you experimenting with something ? Different rig or bait ? I guess not or you would have said, it may have been the swim, in fact I think it’s most likely with that many takes others probably know of it and fish it too, resulting in even average Barbel becoming spooky, I reckon nothing to do with the rod at all, the fish were just dead wary of fully taking the bait in resulting in very weak hook holds

I had this the other week, I lost as many as I had hooked, compared to precious sessions when I hooked and landed everyone. I have had this before too. Its wierd one. My thoughts were they were very tentative and didn't really get the hook in the mouth, just nicked, if at all. As you say Ian, they were very wary of taking a bait.

 

[Richard Isaacs]

There’s also John baker’s theory on this to consider which I don’t believe is to push his baits.
Over flavoured hook baits. Fish take and eject them quite quickly due to the strength of the flavor before the bait enters the mouth cavity properly making the hook hold quite poor.

I’m not saying it is the case for everyone but one that’s often in the back of my mind.

The other thing to look at is hook sharpness. I check my hook every single time it’s in my hand. Do we all prick our selves and scratch them points across our nails regularly?