• You need to be a registered member of Barbel Fishing World to post on these forums. Some of the forums are hidden from non-members. Please refer to the instructions on the ‘Register’ page for details of how to join the new incarnation of BFW...

Hooks again.

Richard Isaacs

Richard Isaacs

Senior Member & Supporter
I can clearly see Gerrys Korda Krank thread taking one for the team and it’s not fair on him for it to go that way so with this been my thread by all means go nuts.
Barbs, barbless, cemex waters, carp, mouth damage etc etc here’s the place to get it all out........... again............
Small favour though if you please....
keep it in good spirit, respect other opinions, have a good debate. I’d like to think we are all good anglers on here and all do what we can to preserve fish care above anything else. So the meer fact that we all share this common interest tells me we can have different opinions and still stay in good spirit.

I’ll start if you like.
I’m firmly in camp barbless. I have carefully come to the conclusion that both styles of hooks micro barb and barbless offer both bad points to the welfare of the fish and it’s simply down to the question what’s the lesser of 2 evils.

Well for me The lesser of two evils is the small risk that a barbless hook can come out in the event of a slack like and re hook that lip in other positions causing more harm than necessary. A barbed hook could never do this.

The worse of two evils is fish death.
A bigger chance of this happening too imo because we fish natural rivers for the hardest fighting course species lb for lb and this species is very good at bolting for the snags and cracking us off on what ever is down there. Leaving them with 3 or 4 Mtrs of line hanging out of their traps is absolutely possible if it can get your main line to suffer abrasion. They won’t shift a micro barb that’s set properly in the bottom lip and risk getting tethered and die.

I don’t fish commercial lakes, I’ve no interest in what cemex enforced or why they think it should be enforced. I don’t believe a barbed hook cannot move around the mouth as well. Not as freely as a barbless but that’s irrelevant because of the sheer leverage and pressure applied to the hook I’m telling you any hook no matter how big the barb is, is going to twist and move with that level of pressure applied when the fish changes direction. I’d struggle to stop a hook moving clamped between a pair of point nose pliers if someone was pulling on it with a 12 foot lever so where we get this idea that a barb in soft tissue is going to stop it is beyond me.
But anyway that’s irrelevant and even if it was believable I’d still be in camp barbless because I’m a barbel angler and these fish are fit, big and know exactly where the snags are. in my opinion barbed hooks pose a bigger risk to fish death than a barbless ever will.
So there you have it. Gerrys thread is now safe and I’ve just opened the flood gates ;)
 
Last edited:
Oh and by the way. The new Nash pinpoint claw hooks are absolutely amazing I’ve no reason to change those for a while. Worth a try if your thinking of a change. (Barbed and barbless).
 
Graham Elliott said:
I can only say that on barbless carp waters "parrot lips" are fairly common.
IMO this is because there is nothing to stop the hook slicing the mouth.

Probably more prevalent due to the way rods are set up.
Click to expand...
How do barbless "slice the mouth", but barbed don't? I just can't see any logic in this.
 
Terry Simner said:
How do barbless "slice the mouth", but barbed don't? I just can't see any logic in this.
Click to expand...
The only way I can see that been possible Terry would be from the hook been ejected and reinserted where the point may do the slicing. I’m with you on this as I firmly believe that’s very unlikely especially with a tight line. I I suffered a smash up under willow tree from what felt like a huge fish beginning of the season. Roots, rocks, shopping trolleys whatever it was I don’t know but it left that fish with a lot of 15lb line to deal with. I’m confident it’s dropped that hook as quickly as they usually do in my landing net and for me that’s what matters.
 
Logically there is nothing to stop the barbless hook swivelling from the eye/taught line position during play and enlarging the hole in the mouth or the lip.

Obviously more relevant in carp type flange lips rather than those that barbel have.


I have however seen barbless hooks buried as far as the eye on barbel on a few occasions.

My experience on damage that barbless hooks can do is from Thorpe Lea. Stocked like it from a barbless water and a small carp lake that is barbless that I fish for perch, with most carp showing mouth damage.


I do realise that people are very split on this issue, so do what you think is best for your own conscience.
 
Graham Elliott said:
Logically there is nothing to stop the barbless hook swivelling from the eye/taught line position during play and enlarging the hole in the mouth or the lip.
Click to expand...
I don’t believe a micro barb is enough to stop this happening either Graham. I’m quite confident that any hook with or without a barb will turn and swivel in soft flesh very easily with the pressure applied through powerful rods and heavy bouncing leads. I’ll be honest I’ve never seen a hook eye penetrating into a lip either. I’m struggling to see that potential in any hook because the force applied is a pulling force against the eye so the lip should in theory sit in the hook bend. You’d have to push the eye into the lip to achieve that surely. Perhaps this happens with fish trying to remove the hook by banging its mouth on the bed ?? Maybe that’s possible then I suppose. Not something I’ve seen yet mind.
 
I believe mouth damage primarily to be caused by careless angling and obviously more common on heavy pressured waters. Commercial carp lakes with big stocks are inevitably the worst for this because Let’s face it, it’s easy comfortable popular and perfect for beginners. Unfortunately A lot beginners lack fish care knowledge. We have a lovely little lake our way that’s rammed to the nines with carp 3-15lb with the odd 20. They are fished for and caught on all manner of tackle by all manner of Anglers and some simply don’t give a rats. Others lack education. Lots of short cuts taken on rigs preventing lead ejection. Leads so heavy they would stop great whites in their tracks. Match nets used to land carp. No fish resting or fish resting upside down in a tiny net, broom handle Style rods with Toe rope for line. The list is endless and I’d certainly put any of these reasons To cause mouth damage before barbed or barbless hooks in competent hands.
 
The only movement that a barb reduces/restricts is that plane in the opposite direction to which the point points (i.e. away from the point). The barb adds 1% at most to the side-on plane, compared to a barbless hook, so adds minuscule addition resistance to sideways movement. That's fact.
Fish in commercials get parrot-mouthed because they're repeatedly caught, possibly often by less experienced, less caring 'anglers'. That's my opinion.
PS... whilst re-wrapping pellets on a hair today the loaded feeder, on my knees, fell. The (Kurv) hook went straight into my index finger up to the hook bend. Thankfully it was barbless and it came straight out. If it wasn't for that incident today I wouldn't be wasting my words here on this thread.
 
I have never caught a barbel with a barbless hook still in its mouth. Caught plenty with barbed, some trailing a length of line. The latest had a horrible inflamed lip and a corroding hook with a braid hooklink. Was pleased to remove.
Needless to say I use barbless and they frequently fall out in the net.
 
Richard, you said we could deviate.
I hear the argument for and against barbless, but I think a bigger problem can be hook length material, and in carp fishing rod test.
The fashion over the years has been for braided lines and more powerful rods. These are probably fine for really experienced anglers who know how to use them. But all anglers have to start somewhere, and make mistakes as they develop. If we look at John Wilson 20 years ago he would be suggesting a pound and a quarter rod and perhaps 6 or 8lb main line for barbel. The angler cannot put excessive pull on the fish whilst playing it, and if the hook link snaps the fish is left trailing very little. Today that beginner would start with perhaps a one and three quarter rod, 10 or 12lb main line and maybe a 20lb braided hook length. I would suggest a much more dangerous combination in inexperienced hands.
 
The third option , Micro barbed, like the fox wide gape beaked hooks, I have caught a couple of barbel with tow rope braid hook lengths and jonking great barbed hooks trailing from the mouth, did see a poor trent river carp that looked like a gummy bear mouth wise what a mess a while back.
 
As I indicated in my first post rod set ups can be the primary cause of badly damaged mouths.


I have no idea where your max 1 percent of movement comes from Terry? You are confusing the hooks barb percentage with the effect of the barb at all angles.

Of course we sometimes catch fish with a hook in. It's the nature of the game. And I accept in general it is likely to be a barbed hook.

Probably because the action of feeding will work a barbless enough for it to make a bigger hole as it moves. Likely the same reason they can bury up th the eye.


However, my comments refer to carp mouths and damage. Quite frankly a good hook hold in a barbel rubber mouth should stay in pretty well without much movement, if so the barbless hook will move through the flesh easier causing greater damage, especially with a light hook hold.

Because it's not barbed.


I use micro barbed. Very happy that they won't generally move and greatly restrict potential damage as seen to carp where barbless are stipulated.
 
Graham Elliott said:
I have no idea where your max 1 percent of movement comes from Terry? You are confusing the hooks barb percentage with the effect of the barb at all angles.
Click to expand...
9385


Look at this 'cross-section' shot of barbed vs. barbless. The actual 'barb' adds less than 1% to the total surface area of metal i.e. that surface area that would/might/could add resistant to any sideways movement of the hook through flesh (and barb above is on the big side, IMO)..
N.b... sideways, or "slashing" movements of a hook would possibly be greater (more likely?) with fine-wire hooks compared to heavy gauge wire hooks.
 
Thats what I said you maybe confused about Terry....


"I have no idea where your max 1 percent of movement comes from Terry? You are confusing the hooks barb percentage with the effect of the barb at all angles."

Stating it's FACT is not accurate. IMO
 
Neil Smart said:
The reasoning is that a barb will hold firm, whilst a barbless will move in a cheese cutting motion.
Click to expand...
How? The barb only restricts movement in the 'in-out' plane, not in the potential sideways movement plane. Why would a hook move sideways anyway ... and if it did, how would the relatively very small surface area provided by the barb reduce this?
N.b... "cheese cutting" is an expression that brings braid and fine-wire hooks to my mind.
 
I am currently in the micro-barbed camp but...I have to confess that some of the hooks I remove are more difficult than I would like and this is additional time on the bank for the fish that I don't like. I genuinely haven't used enough barbless to give a valid opinion and have good angler friends on both sides of the argument.
Due to new rules I used Pallatrax Gripz on the Wye earlier this season and they performed faultlessly. Yet back on the Swale i reverted, by type, to micto barbed.
Any views on the Gripz from longer term users? Are they a decent compromise for angler & fish?
 
I try to use barbless when possible like Paul said above some barbed hooks are difficult to get out ... particularly bad are the drennan specialist barbel hooks and I reckon that’s where some mouth damage can be caused I have actually thrown the 2 packs I had away... I generally only use barbed hooks when fishing with leads over 4oz as I seem to drop too many fish using barbless with big leads I presume the weight of the lead pulls the hook out if there is the slightest bit of slack line during the fight...
Barbless I use Gardner targets ( very underrated hook)
And barbed I use owner C5,s micro barbs
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top