• You need to be a registered member of Barbel Fishing World to post on these forums. Some of the forums are hidden from non-members. Please refer to the instructions on the ‘Register’ page for details of how to join the new incarnation of BFW...

Do we really care ?

Gary Downie said:
In certain parts of Australia carp are considered a pest.
So much so that by law you must not return them!!
Click to expand...
Austria has suffered more than most from the disaters caused by imports of none native species..therefore they tend to apply the laws on conservation with rather more vigor. Introducing (or re introducing by catch and release) of non native species in this country can also be illegal, it does depend on the circumstances. King Carp have no place in our rivers and I would certainly be happy to not return them if ever I caught them. Along with Cat Fish and Zander for that matter.
 
Pete Marshall said:
Austria has suffered more than most from the disaters caused by imports of none native species..therefore they tend to apply the laws on conservation with rather more vigor. Introducing (or re introducing by catch and release) of non native species in this country can also be illegal, it does depend on the circumstances. King Carp have no place in our rivers and I would certainly be happy to not return them if ever I caught them. Along with Cat Fish and Zander for that matter.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry to disagree Pete, but I'm sure that you're well aware that barbel were originally only present in rivers in Britain that flowed from west to east, therefore, to follow your argument, then barbel in the Hampshire Avon and the Stour (stocked from fish from the Kennet) and numerous other rivers throughout the country shouldn't be returned! I'm sure that would go down a treat!
Steve
 
Barbel are a native species. They were not native to all river systems and still are not. Introducing them to a river system where they don't presently spawn would be illegal. The spread of Barbel to other river systems was carried out legally. I would strongly oppose any illegal introductions of Barbel in the same way as I oppose other illegal introductions. I also recognise that the spread of Barbel, whilst great for us Barbel anglers, has harmed other fish stocks. I think it is about time we stopped messing about with and started to mange our rivers to create a balance of species rather than for any particular species to unnaturally dominate...be it, Trout, Barbel or whatever happens to be the favoured fish..
Just because a species has been introduced in the past, legally as with Barbel, it doesn't mean we should support or encourage the illegal introduction of species not only unknown to some, but unknown to all rivers in the UK.
Catfish and King Carp have no place in our rivers and have been illegally or irresponsible introduced. With Zander it is a little more difficult as the original introduction was carried out legally, although the spread to other rivers was not.
 
Pete,

I fear there's an impossibly clouded line between "managing" and "messing about with".

I'm all in favour of attempting to remediate the impact of human errors, but ultimately feel all intervention, including apparently balanced and varied stocking and environmenal control falls into the category of 'messing'.

River ecosystems are highly dynamic over the medium term, due to effects of climate, erosion, population change. It's the impactful events and behaviours that influence water quality, environment and fish stock that requires greater control/management rather than the river or fish populations.

Did someone say otters? ;)
 
Pete Marshall said:
Barbel are a native species. They were not native to all river systems and still are not. Introducing them to a river system where they don't presently spawn would be illegal. The spread of Barbel to other river systems was carried out legally. I would strongly oppose any illegal introductions of Barbel in the same way as I oppose other illegal introductions. I also recognise that the spread of Barbel, whilst great for us Barbel anglers, has harmed other fish stocks. I think it is about time we stopped messing about with and started to mange our rivers to create a balance of species rather than for any particular species to unnaturally dominate...be it, Trout, Barbel or whatever happens to be the favoured fish..
Just because a species has been introduced in the past, legally as with Barbel, it doesn't mean we should support or encourage the illegal introduction of species not only unknown to some, but unknown to all rivers in the UK.
Catfish and King Carp have no place in our rivers and have been illegally or irresponsible introduced. With Zander it is a little more difficult as the original introduction was carried out legally, although the spread to other rivers was not.
Click to expand...

Pete you say the spread of barbel to other river systems was done legally . I think you will find that barbel found there way in to many English rivers in a far from legal manner , this is well documented
 
Pete a great deal of river carp have entered the rivers not by man but by floods, probably a lot more than by design, theres nothing wrong with stocking different species in any water PROVIDING conditions and surroundings are suitable to healthily sustain the species and allow them to regenerate their numbers without serious detriment to existing species....j.w:)
 
Pete Marshall said:
Barbel are a native species. They were not native to all river systems and still are not. Introducing them to a river system where they don't presently spawn would be illegal. The spread of Barbel to other river systems was carried out legally. I would strongly oppose any illegal introductions of Barbel in the same way as I oppose other illegal introductions. I also recognise that the spread of Barbel, whilst great for us Barbel anglers, has harmed other fish stocks. I think it is about time we stopped messing about with and started to mange our rivers to create a balance of species rather than for any particular species to unnaturally dominate...be it, Trout, Barbel or whatever happens to be the favoured fish..
Just because a species has been introduced in the past, legally as with Barbel, it doesn't mean we should support or encourage the illegal introduction of species not only unknown to some, but unknown to all rivers in the UK.
Catfish and King Carp have no place in our rivers and have been illegally or irresponsible introduced. With Zander it is a little more difficult as the original introduction was carried out legally, although the spread to other rivers was not.
Click to expand...

Pete, please don't misinterpret my post as advocating the illegal stocking of non-native species. Carp have been present in the river Thames for many years (I caught my first from the river about 40 years ago). As for legal stocking, I believe that the (then) Thames Conservancy stocked carp into the river Thames some time ago. As for zander, they were stocked into waters by the old Anglian Water Authority back in the 70's I think, much to the furore of local anglers, especially the match-fishing fraternity. I do recognise that fish such as zander and catfish have been moved into some rivers illegally, however, both are species that thrive in rivers, especially on the continent. I believe that a balance can be achieved without resorting to the kind of actions that you seem to suggest (Carp are treated as vermin and, as such, are left to rot and are used by farmers as fertiliser in Australia).
Cheers Steve
 
I agree that things are changing dramatically in some rivers, more slowly in others, but change is certainly occurring.

I often wonder though whether the connectedness of the internet and forums like these, allowing us to pool knowledge and personal observations from around the country so quickly, end up making us all hyper-aware of changes that may always have been going on to some degree.

Just how stable have fish populations been in past I wonder? If there were past heydays for big barbel our great grandfathers might have remembered, would those same rivers they fished have been producing big roach at the same time? Or is the Crabtree-esque view of the full-to-the-brim river, specimen fish of every species a bit of a myth? And if in the past people had individually noticed changes to certain fish stocks and population densities what would and could they have done with that knowledge? My guess is not a lot (although I may well be wrong). And if that were the case, did it turn out to matter that they didn't do much? I think being custodians of water quality is about the best thing we can do. And I think, to address the thread question directly, that is what I really care about.

As Ian said, when change comes to my local barbel population, and it will, I think I will turn to other species rather than chase down stocks of barbel far from home. I love barbel fishing, but I love fishing (period) and being by the waterside even more.
 
Dave, i think you hit the nail on the head with your thoughts on the speed and
info available through internet, it can be a wonderous aid but also a sting in the tail at the same time, yes fish highs do have their cycles of highs and lows mate, i can remember around 47-48 years ago that my average perch i caught at walthamstow ressies was around the 2-3 lb mark which was a lot bigger than average perch elsewhere, this unfortunately and mysteriously dropped off, i think dace did on the river thames too, obviously it was reservoirs so water quality wasnt an issue,

steve, thames carp 40 odd years back, outflow near the gardens by any chance;) long time gone now eh....j.w
 
John, Canbury Gardens......ah, takes me back. Some of my early night fishing trips after bream. We used to stand by the railings in the morning and watch the seemingly uncatchable leviathans swimming in the outflow.
My first Thames carp (a little mirror of a few pounds) came from Marlow whilst swing-tipping with bread-flake for bream one balmy summer's evening.
Steve
 
Rivers are complex places, fish have been stocked legally and illegally, with both good and bad effects. It is always difficult to predict the future but I do think the carp represents a threat/ opportunity for river anglers. It is a threat because the King Carp stock has been specifically bred to be fast growing. It achieves this by out competing other species for food. Inevitably it will come to dominate some rivers which suit it. It is an opportunity for exactly the same reason. For many anglers, myself included, catching a hard fighting river carp (and once they have been born and breed in rivers they do fight hard) is an exciting experience. They are very long lived and a hardy breed, so perhaps they will become the main quarry of river anglers in twenty years or so?
However I rather like Barbel and am quite willing to see Carp removed from rivers if it helps retain Barbel.....as people have pointed out most of the Barbel were introduced in one way or another, the odd one or two illegally, but in the main legally and there were anglers back in the 70's who opposed Barbel going in the Severn because they felt it threatened other species, indeed as they found their way up the Teme the trout, roach etc. certainly reduced both in size and quantity...so I am being a hypocrite in favouring one species over another, just because I enjoy fishing for that species......:cool:
 
Pete...got me confused, just about sums the reality of it all up for me though !

I aint got a clue what supposed to be around in the rivers nowadays and none of us really do...it swings one way then the other....

As long as there are some species thriving in the current rivers conditions it can't be that bad....it's when none thrive we should be worried and that's what's happening round my way

Cheers
Jason
 
Jason Bean said:
it's when none thrive we should be worried and that's what's happening round my way

Cheers
Jason
Click to expand...
That is certainly true and very worrying. On the rivers I regullarly fish, there are certainly some changes occuring, but I couldn't say a general decline is in place. The Teme for instance seemed to be alive with fry last close season, but the larger Barbel are either dying off, or are just getting harder to catch, Barbel in the 4-6 lb area dominate (and of course being from the Teme are great fighters). On the Mease, which I fish during the winter, it is absolutely full (for a little river) of Chub but other species such as Roach and even Perch seem to have declined...again it may be that I am just not catching them and of course once you know a particular fish dominates, you do tend to fish for it.
Fortunately neither of these rivers have the Signal Crayfish in them, which as discussed elsewhere, is defiantly a non native we could do without as everywhere they go spells trouble for all fish stocks and indeed the river itself. That at least is one non native we can always kill...
 
Pete, that aint being a hypocrite mate thats being a dedicated angler who enjoys fishing on his terms:)
Jason, nice to see you getting some good serious postings on here mate,
just keep mr Hyde indoors:D:D hows that car going;)....j.w
 
Dear All,

A point regarding carp in rivers. The river Trent long and wide is stuffed with carp. It is also stuffed with barbel. Stuffed with roach, huge bream shoals one could walk across, perch, dace, pike, now it appears zander and sizable catfish both the later coming from Lord knows where. Sometimes seals, sturgeon and maybe the odd tiger shark? It is also the capital city of Cormorant Land, home to sizable populations of naughty mink, and is being colonised further with otters as I write.

So what out of all the above species is responsible for the demise, nay complete extinction of my beloved Burbot then!!??

Regards,

Lee.
 
Dear Mike,

Not in the Trent or any other British river. Plenty over in Scandinavia but the Burbot "IS" on the red book list and "IS" on the list for reintroduction back into the UK. Its absolutely brill with some chips wrapped in newspaper. Maybe that’s why they went extinct? Real reason was pollution methinks mostly from the potteries in times gone by.

Regards,

Lee.
 
From my brief study on the subject of Burbot, it seems the major reason for there extinction from UK waters was water temperature, they are a cold water species,our rivers are just too warm, little point in a reintroduction methinks!
As for the apparent decline in some species, does seem that apart from the Trent, barbel numbers/catches have dwindled, even the infamous lower Thames bream have disappeared from the radar, unless you fish in a few holding areas, where they are stacked up, but don,t seem to venture far afield, even in "ideal" conditions, all very odd?
Peter
 
I fish a syndicated stretch of the thames below abingdon; it used to have a reputation for big barbel and i'm sure they still inhabit the river somewhere nearby, but most of the barbel anglers fishing it last season and the season before did very poorly. In the closed season 2008, around 80 carp including some very big fish, were trapped in a natural dip in the fields adjacent to the river after spring flooding. The EA advised that under normal circumstances they would have moved or killed them, but due to the numbers of large fish and the location of the fishery which made it difficult to transport them, they decided to return them to the river. There are a number of bream, tench, big chub and perch in the stretch, but the barbel really are notable for the their absence. I'm not sure what the reasons are and if the numbers of carp are responsible, but i do know that the thames is renowned for its barbel doing a dissappearing act and then returning several years later. This could be due to increases and decreases in natural food and i'm sure that the floods of 2007 will have ripped out a lot of vegetation and silt and subsequently destroyed areas of natural larder. It's just one possibility or reason for some fish moving on in the same way that silt deposits over previous gravel beds is another.
 
Lee Fletcher said:
Dear Mike,

Not in the Trent or any other British river. Plenty over in Scandinavia but the Burbot "IS" on the red book list and "IS" on the list for reintroduction back into the UK. Its absolutely brill with some chips wrapped in newspaper. Maybe that’s why they went extinct? Real reason was pollution methinks mostly from the potteries in times gone by.

Regards,

Lee.
Click to expand...

Lee have faith , they are out there somewhere . One day ....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top