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Do fish feel pain?

They definitely feel something or they wouldn't bolt on being hooked! They wouldn't 'suffer' as such as they're incapable of emotion. That said I'm convinced they express contempt and amusment at my attempts to catch them.
 
As DG said in an earlier post fish must feel pain, to survive. I think fish can feel sensory pain but will not have the cognition to suffer (psychological pain).

So if a fish swims into a sharp object it will feel the initial sharp pain (from the stimulus) and this inturn will evoke a flight response and fish will move away from source of pain.

Any further perception of pain (again IMO) would hinder the survival of fish species; imagine a roach which has just survived the clutches of a comorant but has a huge stab wound to show for it. If a fish were to dwell on the pain (suffer) then its ability to carry out it's everyday functions would be dramatically hindered (think man with man flu).

Basically, pain as we know it is a psychological construct.
 
Ash Gould said:
As DG said in an earlier post fish must feel pain, to survive. I think fish can feel sensory pain but will not have the cognition to suffer (psychological pain).

So if a fish swims into a sharp object it will feel the initial sharp pain (from the stimulus) and this inturn will evoke a flight response and fish will move away from source of pain.

Any further perception of pain (again IMO) would hinder the survival of fish species; imagine a roach which has just survived the clutches of a comorant but has a huge stab wound to show for it. If a fish were to dwell on the pain (suffer) then its ability to carry out it's everyday functions would be dramatically hindered (think man with man flu).

Basically, pain as we know it is a psychological construct.
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Interesting observation Ash . Accepting that fish do feel pain , your argument seems to imply that once the initial pain is experienced the fish cannot feel further pain . I don't think that you are saying the fish chooses not to feel further pain , more that somehow the pain disappears , or that fish do not have a pain memory as it were . If the fish still has a fresh / raw cormorant stab in it's side I struggle to understand how the pain caused by this can disappear . The fish has the receptors to feel pain therefore surely when it has a fresh injury that pain must remain , at least to a degree . ?
 
My point does seem contradictory now you put it like that Mike!

And it probably boils down to semantics really. The initial feeling that fish feel (and I referred to as pain) is the reaction needed in order to survive. Perhaps what we would perceive as a pain stimulus actually just provides a reactionary stimulus for the fish.

What we would consider a painful reaction (i.e. to a hook) is probably just a reaction.

Actually the more I think about it, we are probably observing a stress reaction not a pain reaction. And that stress reaction is a result of what we would perceive as a pain stimulus? I.e. hook/gaff.

Now I think about it more, my limited memory is throwing something out about increased levels of cortisol (a stress hormone) in hooked and played fish, with the increased levels going back to normal when released but staying high if kept in a keep net.

So, Im going to go full circle on this one and say fish feel no pain. However certain stimuli (such as a struck home hook) will induce stress reactions in fish which when anthromorphised are perceived as pain reactions.

I stick by my point that no fish will suffer the pain of a wound as it would hinder their ability to perform everyday function by using toomuch mental capacity.
 
I think that when a fish is hooked it recognises that something is wrong and swims away from it, or bolts. A pure flight reaction developed over millions of years of evolution.
If it felt pain the last thing it would do is bolt as I know from a recent experience when I whacked a size 10 into my finger over the barb. I promise you I certainly felt pain and if someone was pulling on the other end there is no way I would have pulled back; in fact, I would have followed them through the gates of hell itself to stop that pain.
 
I think several posters had it right, and the summing up by both Ash and Adrian is probably spot on.....it can't be pain as we know it Jim :D Very interesting thread.

Cheers, Dave.
 
The bit I found particularly interesting was the idea that fish resume normal activity etc quite quickly after being hooked and released (well I think that's what the article said). So this could, perhaps, support the idea of a relatively quick recapture?
 
i beleave fish feel the sensation of say a hook penetrating (not pain) ,then because its unexpected ,it invokes the natural instinct of fight or flight all creatures have ,now for fish its mostly a case of flight (apart from a few tropical fish ,fish are passive creatures ,even preditors aren't aggressives and only kill when hungary) ,they accellerate away from the situration until force from a angler tries to pull it back the other way ,then the fishes survival instincts kick in and then it tries to break loose ,some fish will accept the inevitable sooner than others .

fish will and do continue to feed after capture ,some being caught more than once in a session .

fish use their lips not just too keep the food in their mouths from falling out but in a manner simmular to our hands its their method of picking up things and too feel amoungst debris on the bottom for food and the fishes lips are quite sensative to touch and maybe taste to a degree but not pain as the fishes lips must come into plenty of sharpe objects while feeding and grubbing around in the dirt /bottom ,evolution would have no need for pain receptors in fish ,they live in water and as such custioned from harshness they rub up against rocks ,they scale weirs and waterfalls and spawn in some rough places and have sex in wiered places.they couldn't do any of that if they felt pain ,they know sharpe ,they know blunt ,they sometimes just by holding a bait in their lips know its wrong .

fish simply dont feel pain ,because they don't need too.

i'd argue though that fish cant show/express emotion ,at lest they can in looks ,i've had some very angury looks ,even disgust at being oiked out of their environment by a impudent bathoon like me ,perch can be very cross at being caught (sore losers at tug-o-war) and are prone to gurgling (swearing under their breaths) when yanked from the water .they also have a habit of showing their discust by deficating on ones hand.

angary perch

DSCF2666.jpg


perch's judgement of being caught

DSCF2663.jpg


a limited vocabulary of expressions ,but no concept of pain
 
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That perch looks very cross, and possibly because he had been prevented from enjoying some special love in a weird place. Or even weird love in a special place.
 
Adrian Williams said:
I think that when a fish is hooked it recognises that something is wrong and swims away from it, or bolts. A pure flight reaction developed over millions of years of evolution.
If it felt pain the last thing it would do is bolt as I know from a recent experience when I whacked a size 10 into my finger over the barb. I promise you I certainly felt pain and if someone was pulling on the other end there is no way I would have pulled back; in fact, I would have followed them through the gates of hell itself to stop that pain.
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Good thread this . Adrian , I reckon you are right in that the fish feels something [ I think pain ] , and panics / bolts . However a fish does not have the sophisitcated thought processes posessed by humans . It does not have the abillity to reason that if it stopped pulling it might hurt less . I think it's escape mode overcomes the pain that it is feeling . It's interesting that we use the fight / flight reaction when describing fish behaviour . When we hook the poor things are they attempting flight or attempting a fight ? We anglers always refer to them putting up a 'good' fight , or being an 'angry' barbel .

My view is that fish have a very limited' memory' when it comes to pain . They can be very wary of certain situations , baits , noises etc , and learn to be canny , but this is driven by an association with certain circumstances being remembered as dangerous rather than neccesarily painful . I think when discussing this sort of topic it is very easy , almost inevitable to slide in to anthropromorphism [ bet that's not spelt right ]. Was it the great Dick Walker who said 'think like a fish 'to improve your catches . Great advice but it implies that fish think ....
 
As has been touched on by Adrian, fish have been around for millions of years without really developing a great deal. They are a fairly basic life form. They rely on a basic survival technique. If you grab a fish it wriggles to get free. It would be just the same if it was grabbed by another fish or any other predator. If a fish sees you or your shadow or you stamp your feet on the bank then the fish disappear. Its basic survival instincts. Fish can suffer horrendous physical trauma and yet survive. If they felt anything like what we know as pain how could they possibly live through such an experience. Logic dictates that for a life form to be able to repair itself after such high levels of damage that pain is not a sensory requirement, surely?

I see no reason why a fish would need to feel pain as part of its survival make-up as suggested, if anything it only detracts from it.
 
Thats a good point Nathan, and what I was trying to get at. Fish need to react to pain stimulus but feeling pain or suffering it would hinder their existence.

Imagine the trauma of being caught, if fish were able to think in this they would be anxious wrecks not capable of anything! Fish with PTSD!
 
Again , interesting points . It begs the question why do anglers worry so much about the '' pressure '' that we apparently put on to the fish . This sort of implies that the fish feel psychological strain . Anglers also refer to ''stressed'' and ''spooked'' fish through constant attention from anglers . Are they simply referring to the fish being ultra wary or could it be that fish can actually become stressed in the human understanding of the word ? NB I do not mean physically stressed/distressed by bad handling etc .
 
Again, I think alot of this boils down to semantics and when you actually analyse the discourse anglers use then it quickly becomes apparant that alot of our descriptions of things are tosh!
 
As has been touched on by Adrian, fish have been around for millions of years without really developing a great deal. They are a fairly basic life form. They rely on a basic survival technique. If you grab a fish it wriggles to get free. It would be just the same if it was grabbed by another fish or any other predator. If a fish sees you or your shadow or you stamp your feet on the bank then the fish disappear. Its basic survival instincts. Fish can suffer horrendous physical trauma and yet survive. If they felt anything like what we know as pain how could they possibly live through such an experience. Logic dictates that for a life form to be able to repair itself after such high levels of damage that pain is not a sensory requirement, surely?


My thoughts to a T.

Fish don't have the necessary brain function/make up, to be able to feel pain. IMO, its not the pain of the hook penetrating that makes a fish bolt, its the pressure of the weight, that initiates the panic/need to escape that causes the bolting response.

For instance, I have in the past hooked carp in the margins. Initially, the fish has sought refuge in bank side snags, as long as I have maintained pressure on the fish in an effort to turn it, the fish has continued to seek to get into cover. As soon as I have flicked open the bail arm and given the fish its head, its moved off into open water. This leads me to think that all the fish is doing is pulling back against the pressure exerted against it. Once it can't feel that pressure, it feels no need to pull back.

So, in answer to the original poster, IMO, no fish don't feel pain, what they do feel/recognise, is the response to escape from danger.
 
Is it because they exist and respond on the basis of associations? Isn't this why, despite a conclusion that fish are quite thick and haven't evolved that much since the day God or whoever put them on this earth, us anglers are always on the lookout for an edge- whether its bait or rigs? Of course our efforts may be disproportionate given what is really required to out smart "canny" or "rig wary" fish. Also, what about "blown" baits. Are associations part of their survival strategy and if so, it is presumably quite dynamic in terms of the speed at which they can develop danger or food source associations?
 
Howard Cooke said:
Is it because they exist and respond on the basis of associations? Isn't this why, despite a conclusion that fish are quite thick and haven't evolved that much since the day God or whoever put them on this earth, us anglers are always on the lookout for an edge- whether its bait or rigs? Of course our efforts may be disproportionate given what is really required to out smart "canny" or "rig wary" fish. Also, what about "blown" baits. Are associations part of their survival strategy and if so, it is presumably quite dynamic in terms of the speed at which they can develop danger or food source associations?
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Try not to confuse the ability to learn with an evolved response, on takes millions of years the other can be achieved in a couple of hours.
The fish in my pond which is raised come to the surface as soon as they see my shadow because they have learned to associate it with food whereas if a bird flies over the pond they do a crash dive as that is an evolved response to a threat from predators.
 
The following link will take you to a site where they are going to spend £440,000 to find out if fish feel pain or stress.

BBC News - Fish welfare to get hi-tech boost with automatic alerts

Now, call me old fashioned, but I suspect that if they have a fish in a tank and then somebody sticks a hook in it then they will record that the fish is experiencing some stress. I think we could have told them that for free.................
 
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