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Barbel populations and severe flooding

I fully agree with you David, I do accept there are some great guys in the EA, and perhaps the NRA during the time I refer to, a lot of them take on their roles as vocational, but I look on it like this, someone is responsible for these crazy hair brain schemes, so I, without a shadow of remorse hold the EA totally responsible and as for the Powick weir debacle, its the idea of one Bretch Morris of the EA to remove Powick weir, in one document in 2012, they talk of conserving water, cutting back on abstraction and maintaining the depth of the river and at the same time they put forward a plan to remove Powick weir, to create a lower river Teme of pools, shallows and riffles, Powick weir is the last object on the river Teme that maintains a level of depth during times of drought, ultimately protecting its water born species.......they aint got a clue.
 
Species that aren't best suited to high flows might have some problems, but not a great deal. If fish were routinely washed downstream in floods, some of our upper rivers would be devoid of fish. Our estuaries would be full of dead coarse fish unable to tolerate the salt water.

My local river is pretty fast flowing in normal summer conditions and floods rather spectacularly on a regular basis. Such is the nature of a spate river. I know a place that a handful of big bream have lived for well over twenty years. I know of a similar spot with a handful of carp. Neither species is particularly well suited to fast water. However, they are still to be found year after year, flood after flood. I find it rather implausible that fish are washed significant distances downstream in floods, even extreme ones.

Summer floods during the spawning seasons are a different ball game completely. I've no problem in accepting that whole year classes of fish can be hugely affected by such events.
 
Species that aren't best suited to high flows might have some problems, but not a great deal. If fish were routinely washed downstream in floods, some of our upper rivers would be devoid of fish. Our estuaries would be full of dead coarse fish unable to tolerate the salt water.

My local river is pretty fast flowing in normal summer conditions and floods rather spectacularly on a regular basis. Such is the nature of a spate river. I know a place that a handful of big bream have lived for well over twenty years. I know of a similar spot with a handful of carp. Neither species is particularly well suited to fast water. However, they are still to be found year after year, flood after flood. I find it rather implausible that fish are washed significant distances downstream in floods, even extreme ones.

Summer floods during the spawning seasons are a different ball game completely. I've no problem in accepting that whole year classes of fish can be hugely affected by such events.

Sound words there....
 
River Cherwell ......

2007 worst floods in history ....

Last match of the 2007-2008 season..

1st 72lb mixed catch
2nd 41lb 7 chub
3rd 38lb perch

Read into it what you want...this is the most natural pool riffle section on the lower level of the Cherwell.

Still the best section of the lower river .....Teme?
 
I thought rivers such as the parrot were nene, Ouse type rivers where level control with gates would not allow seals and alike to move inwards into a river from the sea?
 
Just to add to this, though not barbel, I've had a near 25lb pike in a similar spot, two years apart and a few very heavy and devastating floods in between. I believe that the fish won't move too far away from their usual haunts, and there are usually a few spots on each stretch that offer shelter from the flow. If a big pike can do it, I'm sure barbel can hold their own
 
Surely once a flood has caused a river to spill over into the fields then how much more rain falls will not increase the flow? It will just run over the banks. So is a flood that makes a river half a mile wide creating a stronger flow than one that just reaches the top of the banks? I don't know the answer to this but have often wondered about it.
 
I think Alex its what water perpetually tries to drain into the river, from tributaries, you are probably right that after a certain point the rivers velocity and volume doesnt increase, especially once it has burst its banks, I notice this on the middle and lower Severn, but it also depends where you are on a river, inside of a bend or the outside of a bend, however once the center of the river attains maximum velocity, it then only has one way to go once the river starts to recede, it starts to slow as the force of the flow decreases and the friction against the river bed is more influential on the flow, whilst speed of the current has a maximum, does the weight of the flow increase with the viscosity changes due to temperature changes of the water?
 
Surely once a flood has caused a river to spill over into the fields then how much more rain falls will not increase the flow? It will just run over the banks. So is a flood that makes a river half a mile wide creating a stronger flow than one that just reaches the top of the banks? I don't know the answer to this but have often wondered about it.

Alex, I guess once the channel is full, the water velocity will have reached an optimum speed. Engineering works that remove bends that have served to physically slow the flows, ...dredging, that increases the river profile are all designed to increase hydraulic capacity to discharge water to the sea as quick as possible at a higher velocity.
Taken to its extremes, the channel bed is concreted to reduce friction and maintenance making it an increasingly hostile environment for fish.
Any work undertaken in isolation usually creates knock-on problems up or downstream as does floodplain urbanisation.
In answer to your question, ..in theory if a small river and a larger deeper river both had the same unimpeded gradient fall, the larger river would flow the fastest due to a smaller percentage contact area to bank and bed resulting in less friction. When the river goes over fields the contact/ friction area would generally increase, given the depth to width ratio, and flows would be slower except for the original channel which will remain constant at bank high levels.
There is a good example of differing flows on the Broadmeads at Old Woking.
The natural loop of river with all of it's meanders and sharp bends looks positively tranquil in flood conditions compared with the man made straight as a rule flood alleviation channel ( Broadmead Cut ) that takes the shortcut across the loop. During the wet winter of 2000 (or thereabouts) the 150 odd acres of floodplain between the cut and river became a perpetually flooded lake , with hardly any discernible flow and a magnet for water fowl, whilst both river and especially the cut raged on.
Believe it or not, there are investment plots on the Broadmeads! They're going to need stilts I reckon.
 
Interesting points from Lawrence and Dave. I remember the 2000 floods very well and they didn't seem to be a lot less than 2007 but the impact on fishing/fish stocks in the years that followed was not noticeable, or at least not commented on. The severe decline after 2007 was felt pretty well everywhere and while it being a summer flood would explain a lot in terms of fry lost, it doesn't really explain why so many mature fish disappeared after 2007 and not 2000.
 
Weird thing is... in the seven days immediately following the second huge flood of 2007, and when the river was back within its banks (the first week in August of that year), I caught 18 barbel from the Middle Teme (4 sessions) between Lindridge and bottom of Eardiston. So there was plenty of (adult) barbel still there, and they were obviously feeding well.
ATBA for the New Year.
Terry
 
Alex, I guess once the channel is full, the water velocity will have reached an optimum speed. Engineering works that remove bends that have served to physically slow the flows, ...dredging, that increases the river profile are all designed to increase hydraulic capacity to discharge water to the sea as quick as possible at a higher velocity.
Taken to its extremes, the channel bed is concreted to reduce friction and maintenance making it an increasingly hostile environment for fish.
Any work undertaken in isolation usually creates knock-on problems up or downstream as does floodplain urbanisation.
In answer to your question, ..in theory if a small river and a larger deeper river both had the same unimpeded gradient fall, the larger river would flow the fastest due to a smaller percentage contact area to bank and bed resulting in less friction. When the river goes over fields the contact/ friction area would generally increase, given the depth to width ratio, and flows would be slower except for the original channel which will remain constant at bank high levels.
There is a good example of differing flows on the Broadmeads at Old Woking.
The natural loop of river with all of it's meanders and sharp bends looks positively tranquil in flood conditions compared with the man made straight as a rule flood alleviation channel ( Broadmead Cut ) that takes the shortcut across the loop. During the wet winter of 2000 (or thereabouts) the 150 odd acres of floodplain between the cut and river became a perpetually flooded lake , with hardly any discernible flow and a magnet for water fowl, whilst both river and especially the cut raged on.
Believe it or not, there are investment plots on the Broadmeads! They're going to need stilts I reckon.

Spot on there Dave, as you say friction (or hydraulic roughness) is one of the major influences on the velocity of the flow, along with gradient (obviously!), hydraulic radius and sinuosity. Engineers use a formula known as the 'Gauckler–Manning–Strickler formula' to estimate/predict flow rates. The finer points of which are beyond my mathematical competence!

(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manning_formula)
 
Spot on there Dave, as you say friction (or hydraulic roughness) is one of the major influences on the velocity of the flow, along with gradient (obviously!), hydraulic radius and sinuosity. Engineers use a formula known as the 'Gauckler–Manning–Strickler formula' to estimate/predict flow rates. The finer points of which are beyond my mathematical competence!

(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manning_formula)

Thanks for that Joe,...my eyes are now watering and I seem to have developed a nose bleed !! :D
I guess the Manning coefficient still forms part of the basis of everyday plumbing and drainage pipe diameters as well as waterways. It first came to my attention when choosing pipe work for large gravity feed filtration installations for koi ponds,... I remember being surprised by how much that friction affected flow rates.

Going back to Anthony's original post, and concurring with some others,.. mature fish seem remarkably resilient to flood events and I have caught many big pike in what would normally be considered awful piking conditions purely because with a little local knowledge location is easy. The bait has to be put on their noses though, and the fish would be covered in lice, .. evidence of their inactivity.
As has been mentioned, the flows directly over the river bed are often slower than nearer the surface,... one reason to hold a float back in normal flows.. and it was Trefor West who's books encouraged me to hold the rod and fish a big bait upstream in mid channel in bank high conditions, because that's where the barbel would often be found.
I remember reading a while back that a fish counter on a weir that was designed to count the number of salmon moving upstream had produced some very high readings in flood conditions, when visibly inspecting the weir it was noticed that many of the 'clicks' were barbel.
 
"If we have to choose between people and wildlife, we will always, of course, choose people," Sir James Bevan told BBC Radio 4's Today programme

Remember that one when you pay for the next coarse fishing licience.

Environment Agency: Flood defences will put people before wildlife
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35213310
 
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