Advice needed for custom power float rod

[Ralph Harris]

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I've gone for the 16mm high stand off minina but ring , at 20 mm it's huge , and stands off the rod a massive 55mm
I think it looks a bit flimsy personally and prone to getting caught, especially by my clumsy self . It would only take a few straightens after getting caught before it snapped!.

The model I used was pac bay KM4KG. The butt ring seems very robust, I don’t think it will bend unless you give it some severe force. I think if that much force was applied to the guide the blank would be damaged, it’s that robust. The ring is also very hard, when I tried to file down the guide foot, it blunted my file, I then used a diamond coated sharpener which cut the material. I have no concerns about the fragility of the ring.

It is a big offset on the 20mm guide and as you say may just get in the way, but it suits the fixed spool reels which will occasionally be used with the rod. To be honest though, many fixed spool reels have been used on float rods with much smaller butt rings often located fairly close to the reel and no one really complained about casting performance. I’m sure your rod will work admirably with the 16mm guide.
But for me I quite like the evidence Fuji presented for their K series guides so I adopted their ideas for this build.

 

[Jim Gregory]

That's the same guide that I'm going to put on mine , wow I knew the minimas were very strong, but didn't realize they were that hard.
Im thinking of a 12 set guide on 15ft as it's an out and out big fish rod.
What are your thoughts Ralph?

 

[Ralph Harris]

That's the same guide that I'm going to put on mine , wow I knew the minimas were very strong, but didn't realize they were that hard.
Im thinking of a 12 set guide on 15ft as it's an out and out big fish rod.
What are your thoughts Ralph?

Remember there are different minima guides, some will be softer than others, I put the model number I used in my post by same guide do you mean exactly the same.
I’m no expert I just think about things and form an opinion. I could easily be seriously wrong but if it still looks like a fishing rod when I’m finished it’s probably good enough. And I’m the only one that’s going to use it. If it’s bad I can alway fix it.
I refurbished a 14 ft GTI SU last year this is solely for use with a pin. When I brought it it had about 18 guides plus tip. When rebuilt it had 12 plus tip. I decided on this based on how the rod bent under load and and its intended use. I don’t think it will ever see a barbel so I will use 6lb line and a lighter hook length. Hence I doubt if it will ever see loads over 6 lb. Once there is a few pounds of load on it the tip section will be virtually straight so the loads on the tip guides won’t ever be that great. I will use heavy floats and I don’t often fish in the rain so spacing of tip guides can be wider than more delicate rods that need the line held from the blank. Guides towards the mid section need to be more robust since they will come under heavy load when the tip is taking little of the load. The thicker parts of the rod won’t ever bend that much so there needs to be less guides on the thick bits.
There is no maths in this, I just bend the rod and ensure that there is a low angle formed by the line entering and leaving the guide. If there is a high angle perhaps another guide is needed.
If the guides are small and light err on the side of more guides, they don’t contribute a lot to the weight or balance.

Rod as purchased under static load, no load on the tip guides with this load on.
The masking tape is where I planned to put the new guides, this may not have been the final positions in this case.
Yes I know I really need a taller log store and give it more load.

Original rod 18 guides

Rebuilt rod stripped, ground, new handle and with 12 guides, Seymo I think.
It’s an old rod so quite heavy compared to modern rods, blank alone was 153g

So I cannot really comment on how many guides (sorry) but I hope the explanation of my design process helps you.

 

[Jim Gregory]

Thanks Ralph, that's very informative and interesting, .
Excellent job on the rebuilds btw!!

 

[Neil Watson]

Hi

They are not new or custum built, but are excellent rods are the Carbotec 13/15 ft - No 3. The action and power in these rods is unbelievable.

 

[Ralph Harris]

Thanks Ralph, that's very informative and interesting, .
Excellent job on the rebuilds btw!!

Thanks Jim, certainly not built up to a custom rod builder standards but good enough to look reasonable. I look at their professional builders photos and start to think they must have special kit to get finishes that good. Then I think a poor craftsman always blames his tools, and I then try a bit harder to get it right.

 

[Richard Isaacs]

Thanks Ralph, that's very informative and interesting, .
Excellent job on the rebuilds btw!!

I would play on the side of caution with guide spacing unless like Ralph you don’t intend on getting caught out in the rain.
More is better from a trotting point of view because the line will flow nicely between the short spaces without the risk of it being blown into the blank. As your a braid user this will be be elaborated further.

Just something to think about.
For me on a 15ft rod ideally I’d want 14 plus tip as a minimum

 

[Jim Gregory]

I would play on the side of caution with guide spacing unless like Ralph you don’t intend on getting caught out in the rain.
More is better from a trotting point of view because the line will flow nicely between the short spaces without the risk of it being blown into the blank. As your a braid user this will be be elaborated further.

Just something to think about.
For me on a 15ft rod ideally I’d want 14 plus tip as a minimum

Thanks for the advice Richard.
Would you still have 14 guides minimum, if you were using 8gm to 12gm floats as a minimum ?.

 

[Richard Isaacs]

Thanks for the advice Richard.
Would you still have 14 guides minimum, if you were using 8gm to 12gm floats as a minimum ?.

Yes i personally would and the float size wouldn’t change my thoughts on it.

The way to get away with less guides is taller guides.
This however is a problem as you get closer to to the tip section because there are not many float/match guides at that size that really do stand off enough to allow the gaps to be opened up significantly without the detrimental effects

If you can find float guides that stand off a long way even as small as 6,5,4mm then you can afford to move them slightly further apart.

But is it worth it.? 2 guides at that size. What are you saving weight wise? Yes i agree that dropping them does unlock the blank more but personally i am happy to stand and trot in the wind and rain and I don’t want the rod to cause me any frustration while doing so.

 

[Ralph Harris]

Jim, All of the advice I seen Richard give is very sound, he obviously particularly knowledgeable when it comes to trotting for large fish with longer rods. From my experience additional rings, particularly small ones won’t weigh a lot.

 

[Chris Jones]

I usually expect float rods to have at least one ring per foot. I also expect faster actioned rods to have more.

The following paragraph is only in reference to 13' (6") rods. Without a single oddity, which is a float rod that looks more like a fast actioned Avon rod, the 13' float rod I have with the fewest rings is a 13' Sphere Match with 13. The 13' Maver Nanolith and 13'6" Browning Sphere ST River have 14 rings. With 15 rings, all three 13' Acolytes, all three Normark MkIIs and a 13' Drennan Team England Action Tip (Spliced). With 16 rings, Normark Titan 2000 and Avenger Legacy and several Daiwa Waggler/Match (hollow tipped) rods. Several 13' Daiwa Spliced Tip "Stick Float" rods and a 13' Daiwa Air AGS have 17 rings. Finally, with a whopping 18 rings is the 13' Daiwa Connoisseur G Spliced Tip.

I've thinned my 15'ers out quite a bit, so the sample size is, mercifully, much smaller.
The 15' Freespirit Hi-S has a rather paltry 13 rings. The Shimano Aerocast 15' Specimen Match has 16 rings. The 15'6" Browning Sphere ST River and all three 15' Acolytes have 17 rings. The Garbolino 15' Match Power Specimen has a whopping 19 rings.

With a bit of luck, that little lot will sort the insomniacs right out.

 

[Jon Frisby]

I usually expect float rods to have at least one ring per foot. I also expect faster actioned rods to have more.

The following paragraph is only in reference to 13' (6") rods. Without a single oddity, which is a float rod that looks more like a fast actioned Avon rod, the 13' float rod I have with the fewest rings is a 13' Sphere Match with 13. The 13' Maver Nanolith and 13'6" Browning Sphere ST River have 14 rings. With 15 rings, all three 13' Acolytes, all three Normark MkIIs and a 13' Drennan Team England Action Tip (Spliced). With 16 rings, Normark Titan 2000 and Avenger Legacy and several Daiwa Waggler/Match (hollow tipped) rods. Several 13' Daiwa Spliced Tip "Stick Float" rods and a 13' Daiwa Air AGS have 17 rings. Finally, with a whopping 18 rings is the 13' Daiwa Connoisseur G Spliced Tip.

I've thinned my 15'ers out quite a bit, so the sample size is, mercifully, much smaller.
The 15' Freespirit Hi-S has a rather paltry 13 rings. The Shimano Aerocast 15' Specimen Match has 16 rings. The 15'6" Browning Sphere ST River and all three 15' Acolytes have 17 rings. The Garbolino 15' Match Power Specimen has a whopping 19 rings.

With a bit of luck, that little lot will sort the insomniacs right out.

Always the Scholar...

 

[Jim Gregory]

I usually expect float rods to have at least one ring per foot. I also expect faster actioned rods to have more.

The following paragraph is only in reference to 13' (6") rods. Without a single oddity, which is a float rod that looks more like a fast actioned Avon rod, the 13' float rod I have with the fewest rings is a 13' Sphere Match with 13. The 13' Maver Nanolith and 13'6" Browning Sphere ST River have 14 rings. With 15 rings, all three 13' Acolytes, all three Normark MkIIs and a 13' Drennan Team England Action Tip (Spliced). With 16 rings, Normark Titan 2000 and Avenger Legacy and several Daiwa Waggler/Match (hollow tipped) rods. Several 13' Daiwa Spliced Tip "Stick Float" rods and a 13' Daiwa Air AGS have 17 rings. Finally, with a whopping 18 rings is the 13' Daiwa Connoisseur G Spliced Tip.

I've thinned my 15'ers out quite a bit, so the sample size is, mercifully, much smaller.
The 15' Freespirit Hi-S has a rather paltry 13 rings. The Shimano Aerocast 15' Specimen Match has 16 rings. The 15'6" Browning Sphere ST River and all three 15' Acolytes have 17 rings. The Garbolino 15' Match Power Specimen has a whopping 19 rings.

With a bit of luck, that little lot will sort the insomniacs right out.

So the best big fish rod you mentioned there has 13 ?? That's if it's the mk1.

 

[Chris Jones]

So the best big fish rod you mentioned there has 13 ?? That's if it's the mk1.

No, the better big fish 15'ers I own(ed) have 16, 17 and 19, respectively.

 

[Jim Gregory]

No, the better big fish 15'ers I own(ed) have 16, 17 and 19, respectively.

Oh , you must have the mk2 his 15ft then...

 

[Chris Jones]

Oh , you must have the mk2 his 15ft then...

I do, but the upscrewing reel seat meant I was never going to buy the mk1.

 

[Richard Isaacs]

I do, but the upscrewing reel seat meant I was never going to buy the mk1.

It probably wouldn’t be a favorite of yours even if built to spec Chris.
the blank walls are quite a bit thicker and it can’t physically be made as light as an acolyte or like without negatively affecting the balance to the point it feels too nose heavy…..As you know I tried to do that and had to put it back to 200g as it was all wrong.

 

[Chris Jones]

It probably wouldn’t be a favorite of yours even if built to spec Chris.
the blank walls are quite a bit thicker and it can’t physically be made as light as an acolyte or like without negatively affecting the balance to the point it feels too nose heavy…..As you know I tried to do that and had to put it back to 200g as it was all wrong.

Despite the weight, I'd have had one for the stillwater if the only way to get a screw down real seat wasn't by paying a significant "custom" premium.

 

[Neil Smart]

Call it as you see fit Neil. All I've asked for is some advice on a custom build rod. Yes I can buy rods off the shelf that will do the same job but those rods are built in a factory and I have no say it how it's made or what components are used. Going the custom route gives me what I want. Where you get the idea it's going to cost £1000's from I don't know. As I said it's my birthday soon and it's a significant mile stone for me so I thought I'd treat myself. What I do with my money is up to me. Do you have anything to add thats constructive?

Plenty of good off the shelf rods that don't need and fiddling with to 'improve' performance.
You say that because they are factory made and cast doubt on the quality of components is frankly a bit elitist.
These long trotting rods are a bit specialised, and undergo many tests before bringing to market, but if you think you can improve then good for you.
Is that constructive enough?

 

[Etienne Harvey]

Well Neil if you take the time to review my original message you will see that I asked for advice on a custom build rod not an off the shelf rod. As there are many components to make a rod, I was asking for an opinion on which components to use as I'm sure that there are many people on this forum with an in depth knowledge on said components. I'm not elitist in any way as I own rods both off the shelf and custom built. Obviously companies will make rods to a price point and as such will use components that fit within their criteria of use, but are they using the best components they could. So in short your comments have added nothing to my original questions.