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Loss of fish haunting - redemption

Gavin Burt said:
I’ve had 8-12lb in the Warks Avon but nothing smaller (which is a shame).

These have been nearer the Warwick area vs. Harvington / other popular places
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Many of these females get caught many times and can skew the impression of stock numbers.

The same female at 12lb came out on the lwr Avon virtually 3 or 4 times a week I had her at least four times, I find no joy in that and compared to what was when on one short session I had 5 barbel with three being males...they were obviously shoaling, a rare event now.

Yes we applaud larger specimens but alas it is not where we need to be, perhaps the lack of smaller males is attributed to the cocktail of drugs society flushes into our rivers.

Maybe on here we should record the numbers of smaller (males) caught?
 
Neil Smart said:
Many of these females get caught many times and can skew the impression of stock numbers.

The same female at 12lb came out on the lwr Avon virtually 3 or 4 times a week I had her at least four times, I find no joy in that and compared to what was when on one short session I had 5 barbel with three being males...they were obviously shoaling, a rare event now.

Yes we applaud larger specimens but alas it is not where we need to be, perhaps the lack of smaller males is attributed to the cocktail of drugs society flushes into our rivers.

Maybe on here we should record the numbers of smaller (males) caught?
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Not sure how to tell a male from a small female? I caught a 5-08 on Thursday, yesterday there was a 7-08, 10-10 and 12-02 caught. The 12-02 is 100% a different fish. We take a photo of all the barbel and log them. The aim is to build up a data base and an idea of population. So far the 12-02 I caught is the only repeat capture we can verify which is great. It was also caught about 500m from where it was caught previously.
 
Andrew Burt said:
Not sure how to tell a male from a small female? I caught a 5-08 on Thursday, yesterday there was a 7-08, 10-10 and 12-02 caught. The 12-02 is 100% a different fish. We take a photo of all the barbel and log them. The aim is to build up a data base and an idea of population. So far the 12-02 I caught is the only repeat capture we can verify which is great. It was also caught about 500m from where it was caught previously.
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The difference is not that apparent Andrew, apart from the size of the anal fin, the male is shorter than female the latter covering the vent.
 
I think something gives with this considering the barbel populations in rivers we fish. The males must be present with females in order to preserve the populations, but it's evident that they're appearing less frequently. It has lead me to think for many years that in some rivers the species will struggle to survive. Something however that I never considered in this was the survival instinct in animals. I think we have just witnessed a change in their behaviour.
 
The lack of spawning activity the last few years is a worry...these larger females I believe are not breeding and just seem to accept their fate.
Given barbel spawn in the open season can anyone recall a female with spawn capture?
 
Andrew Burt said:
I'm sure we have all lost a big fish we never saw and we keep living that feeling and experience? Well, I cannot get out much or go far because of my recent op but the weather Sunday was such that I had to - for a few hours at least. I managed on my crutches to get my gear to a very safe peg on the Warwickshire Avon and set up for a few hours. After about an hour I hooked a decent chub that took the large meat offering, it fell off. Then I missed two bites, thinking the meat was too large a portion I punched a smaller bit out. The next bite I hooked what I thought was a very big chub, that is until I got it in close when it powered off down the river. I repeated this a few times, it was a heavy lump and I was wondering just how big. Eventually it was under my rod end and I lifted only to feel a juddering as the barbel entered a previously unknown snag. It went back and forth, I slack lined and couldn't loosen it. Eventually I could not feel any pulling back, it had gone, I pulled for a break and retrieved everything but the hook. I was gutted and could think of little else than what might have been, the possibility I had lost a special fish.

I commented to a mate that barbel could be a bit daft and I thought there was a slim chance it would feed the next day. So, yesterday I returned and repeated the struggle to the peg except this time it had a cold easterly and rain. I sat there in the rain and after two hours the tip went around. I hooked the fish and realised quickly it was another big barbel. The more the fight went on it repeated the performance from the previous day and I thought I had hooked the same fish. This time I was wary of the snag and after a protracted battle close in I netted it. The first thing I did after resting her for a few minutes was to check in the mouth, was it the same one? i couldn't believe it, there was my hook from the previous day! For once I wasn't going to add another to the list of what might have been, the relief was immense!

Inevitably it wasn't the giant my imagination led me to believe but still a great fish at 12lb 2oz and that haunting exorcised! View attachment 28837View attachment 28838
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Really enjoyed reading that, a great capture under the circumstances and what a tank of fish! Looking at your pic I thought “snap!” I think I caught it’s smaller twin back in Jan.
IMG_9947.jpeg
 
Neil Smart said:
The difference is not that apparent Andrew, apart from the size of the anal fin, the male is shorter than female the latter covering the vent.
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Interested in this topic and I think it’s probably a very valuable thing for the Barbel angling community to observe, with these fish becoming scarce our record keeping is quite important really.

In terms of the sexual distinction I’ve never been aware of a marker of differences between male and female, the main theory being that the big ones are by function female, but other than that they were monomorphic. Did you have a source for that sexual distinction? I assume you mean the Pelvic fin rather than Anal as the Vent is in front of the Anal fin.
 
Looking at Andrews fish which looks to be a short bodied fatty, and Daniels which also looks to be quite short and fat in body shape they do appear to differ in form to the barbel round these more northern parts of the country were the fish appear to be longer and more streamlined in comparison.
I've never fished a southern river so have no idea of how fast they flow, their substerates etc etc.
Round these parts the rivers are usualy quite fast flowing and have a lot of boulders varying in size from goose stones and pebbles to the size of a car and a lot of bedrock also.
I imagine the contrast in rivers must make a difference in the form a barbel grows into.

This barbel had a big belly but wasn't fat....



Again, this one has a belly, but rather than being actual fat, it looks to be bloated up with food after eating freebies....

 
Please believe me that I post only because I’m a very average angler who has lots of blanks but occasionally things go right
So if it can happen for me, it can for anyone
So to conclude the season I returned to the swim I lost several big fish in a week earlier.
I had been informed a 12 and a 10 had come out after my visit
Continued on maggots (live) and using a mini spopper put a good pint in the swim and left it
I also upped the rods to 2lb Torrix and some of Rich’s big maggot feeders
First put in, a nice fat barbel about 6-7 lb 😀
Perfect and some redemption.its easy to forget how hard these shoal fish pull.
Recast and didn’t have to wait too long and another bite.This was definitely a heavier fish and stayed deep and used the current for a great battle
No dramas this time and a nice barbel in the net
She went 10lb exactly- a proper result for this river
IMG_0898.jpeg


Then it went a bit mad
I rested the fish when I had another positive bite. This wasn’t a barbel, probably a modest chub but dare I dream for another big perch?
It wasn’t half banging about, and a bit like the big chub the week earlier, my knees went when I saw a huge perch come to the surface
So, with a 10lb barbel still in the net I slid it under a behemoth of 3lb 7oz.
And I pondered what had just happened?

IMG_0909.jpeg


The action continued with another 2 perch at 2-6 and 1-14 another couple of barbel in the 5-6 lb mark and in the afternoon the chub turned up with a succession of 2-4lb fish
Then another heavy fish, just fighting like a good barbel including taking line so again I was surprised and delighted to net another quality chub - 6lb 2 oz
IMG_0921.jpeg

Another day I’ll never forget
The next day I moved swims but the fishing was hard due to a drop in temperature and a very cold easterly wimd
I lost 2 heavy fish in a new snag in the middle of the river and managed a modest chub
Normal service is resumed !
So I decided to move swims
Maggot fishing was very hard so I opted to throw a sleeper pike rod out
After a few dropped runs I had a very aggressive pike about 7lbs
Recast and almost immediately another run, this time a bit bigger 8-9lbs
Half hour passed and another run- this one was long and very skinny but went 11
I pondered had I found some males and spawning females?
All the fish were super aggressive when hooked
Another half hour and off it goes again, this time some weight to it and another spirited fight before landed
A decent fish that weighed 14-9 , in great nick and no spawn?

cd459b8e-67d0-4473-89c2-85098bb4e421.jpeg

So another strange but productive day having racked up a LOT of blanks this winter chasing Stillwater pike
Yesterday we went to a new stretch more for a recce
Just one dropped run and no fish but lots of promise for next season
So a great week and end to the season
And despite what we catch we always ponder the ones we lost- it keeps the fire burning 🔥
 
Ian Woods said:
do appear to differ in form to the barbel round these more northern parts of the country were the fish appear to be longer and more streamlined in comparison.
I've never fished a southern river so have no idea of how fast they flow, their substerates etc etc.
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Having spent years fishing both I can conclude your findings are absolutely correct Ian there is a difference in general dimensions between fish caught on different rivers.

I don’t believe general flow rate to be the reason but more to do with a rivers time spent in spate or flood and the average temperature of the water throughout the year.

Southern rivers like the Thames, Lea, ivel, and a lot of the Thames tributaries are pacy rivers with powerful flow rates but they take a hell of a lot more rain water to get them into spate or flood than a river that is fed from mountain chalk streams like what you have up there with the swale and the ribble etc.

On average a fish from those spate rivers are leaner and lower in weight. I believe pound for pound they fight harder too. Swale barbel are absolute hooligans in their 6-9lb weight bracket.

Don’t get me wrong we don’t just house the lazy fat girls here. They can certainly wreck tackle like playdough and we have afew lean mean fighters too as you can see here with this 33 inch long 13lb fish from an almost stationary summer flowing Nene.
IMG_7209.jpeg

We have some special fish knocking about that’s for sure but the lack of 5-7lb babel showing up in our southern rivers (excluding the upper Lea) is concerning.

Right now I’d be much much happier catching afew nene males than another big nene double.

Typical average Nene fish looks very similar dimensionally as the ones above from the WAvon
Stocky girls. Not necessarily short though
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IMG_1524.jpeg
 
Richard Isaacs said:
Having spent years fishing both I can conclude your findings are absolutely correct Ian there is a difference in general dimensions between fish caught on different rivers.

I don’t believe general flow rate to be the reason but more to do with a rivers time spent in spate or flood and the average temperature of the water throughout the year.

Southern rivers like the Thames, Lea, ivel, and a lot of the Thames tributaries are pacy rivers with powerful flow rates but they take a hell of a lot more rain water to get them into spate or flood than a river that is fed from mountain chalk streams like what you have up there with the swale and the ribble etc.

On average a fish from those spate rivers are leaner and lower in weight. I believe pound for pound they fight harder too. Swale barbel are absolute hooligans in their 6-9lb weight bracket.

Don’t get me wrong we don’t just house the lazy fat girls here. They can certainly wreck tackle like playdough and we have afew lean mean fighters too as you can see here with this 33 inch long 13lb fish from an almost stationary summer flowing Nene. View attachment 28913
We have some special fish knocking about that’s for sure but the lack of 5-7lb babel showing up in our southern rivers (excluding the upper Lea) is concerning.

Right now I’d be much much happier catching afew nene males than another big nene double.

Typical average Nene fish looks very similar dimensionally as the ones above from the WAvon
Stocky girls. Not necessarily short though View attachment 28914View attachment 28915
Click to expand...


Good stuff...blimey, that first one looks like a dog fish!
 
Richard Isaacs said:
Having spent years fishing both I can conclude your findings are absolutely correct Ian there is a difference in general dimensions between fish caught on different rivers.

I don’t believe general flow rate to be the reason but more to do with a rivers time spent in spate or flood and the average temperature of the water throughout the year.

Southern rivers like the Thames, Lea, ivel, and a lot of the Thames tributaries are pacy rivers with powerful flow rates but they take a hell of a lot more rain water to get them into spate or flood than a river that is fed from mountain chalk streams like what you have up there with the swale and the ribble etc.

On average a fish from those spate rivers are leaner and lower in weight. I believe pound for pound they fight harder too. Swale barbel are absolute hooligans in their 6-9lb weight bracket.

Don’t get me wrong we don’t just house the lazy fat girls here. They can certainly wreck tackle like playdough and we have afew lean mean fighters too as you can see here with this 33 inch long 13lb fish from an almost stationary summer flowing Nene. View attachment 28913
We have some special fish knocking about that’s for sure but the lack of 5-7lb babel showing up in our southern rivers (excluding the upper Lea) is concerning.

Right now I’d be much much happier catching afew nene males than another big nene double.

Typical average Nene fish looks very similar dimensionally as the ones above from the WAvon
Stocky girls. Not necessarily short though View attachment 28914View attachment 28915
Click to expand...
The Nene fish look the same in build to Ouse fish…very ‘portly’ but solid muscle, whereas a typical Severn fish in my experience are lean but with larger pectoral fins
1st pic is from Ouse and 2nd from Severn
IMG_9796.jpeg
IMG_9795.jpeg
 
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