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boilies, pellets and barbel

Ian/Jon,
Not wanting to start an offensive here but one question.
What is the protein content of your HNV baits?
Do you know?
Fishmeals such as antarctic krill and shrimp meal are high in protein but do not constitute what i would consider to be an HNV bait.
People using HNV baits generally spend far more than Jon suggests on ingredients.
Personally, i am far less convinced that the pure HNV theory is worth pursuing given the short lifespan and cost of the ingredients required.
It has many times been suggested, and i will stick my neck out here and say rightly, that as far as fish welfare and digestion are concerned, anything above about 60% protein level is thrown down the drain and completely wasted AND CAN cause major concerns in the digestion and therefore health of fish, particularly in the colder months.
What i'm not saying................................ is that HNV baits don't work in specific situations as they obviously do.
My argument is what people consider HNV is not necessarily an HNV bait in the true sense of the term.
I've heard loads of "barbel anglers" slag off pellets and the "protein content" of said baits but the same people are more than happy to roll a piece of luncheon meat or bacon grill which could be significantly higher in protein content than most of the pellets people use.
Jon mentions "skretting pellet" in his post but unfortunately fails to mention which one.
Skretting provide a multitude of different pellets to the industry, they vary somewhat in protein content, however, you will find that they are highly unlikely to be higher than 40-50% protein.
If people wish to spend inordinate amounts of money buying individual ingredients to create a true HNV bait, then that is up to them. If however, you haven't got a masters in chemistry/fish biology, i would suggest staying clear.
A little knowledge being a dangerous thing!
Regards,
Jeff
 
Jeff Edisbury said:
Ian/Jon,
Not wanting to start an offensive here but one question.
What is the protein content of your HNV baits?
Do you know?
Fishmeals such as antarctic krill and shrimp meal are high in protein but do not constitute what i would consider to be an HNV bait.
People using HNV baits generally spend far more than Jon suggests on ingredients.
Personally, i am far less convinced that the pure HNV theory is worth pursuing given the short lifespan and cost of the ingredients required.
It has many times been suggested, and i will stick my neck out here and say rightly, that as far as fish welfare and digestion are concerned, anything above about 60% protein level is thrown down the drain and completely wasted AND CAN cause major concerns in the digestion and therefore health of fish, particularly in the colder months.
What i'm not saying................................ is that HNV baits don't work in specific situations as they obviously do.
My argument is what people consider HNV is not necessarily an HNV bait in the true sense of the term.
I've heard loads of "barbel anglers" slag off pellets and the "protein content" of said baits but the same people are more than happy to roll a piece of luncheon meat or bacon grill which could be significantly higher in protein content than most of the pellets people use.
Jon mentions "skretting pellet" in his post but unfortunately fails to mention which one.
Skretting provide a multitude of different pellets to the industry, they vary somewhat in protein content, however, you will find that they are highly unlikely to be higher than 40-50% protein.
If people wish to spend inordinate amounts of money buying individual ingredients to create a true HNV bait, then that is up to them. If however, you haven't got a masters in chemistry/fish biology, i would suggest staying clear.
A little knowledge being a dangerous thing!
Regards,
Jeff
Click to expand...


Jeff, i'm not going to go into any great detail here, there are some cards i like to keep close to my chest :D

However, i can say that i know to within + or - 5% what the protein content of my bait is ( raw - in paste form if you like ) given that even the manufacturer of my ingredients wont guarentee the content because it does vary in small amounts. I can tell you it is very high, make from that what you will.

Don't confuse Krill Meal and Shrimp meal with Fishmeal they are very different products, - actually generally speaking lower in protein than fishmeal.

You really don't need to spend inordinate amounts of money to obtain HNV ingredients, and a little bit of research into suppliers can save you £££££s
agreed though if Hi Nuval is the limit of your understanding of the availability of Milk ingredients then your wallet is going to take a serious battering if you used it on a regular basis. :(

Lastly i have no qualifications other than those obtained through my trade and those i left school with, and i can tell you you definatley don't need any at all to understand how to effectivley use an HNV bait.

your last statement....

Quote... A little knowledge being a dangerous thing!

Absolutley !!! :D

Regards
Ian.
 
Jon Whelan said:
I have been comparing different analysis of single ingredients & found the slight deviance you highlighted. It is to be expected. Even when analysing items in triplicate using standard techniques when measuring at concentrations, at parts per million or smaller, there is always slight variance. Then there's where the products originated, slightly different processing, etc...

Nothing can be nailed exactly. The method used to determine protein content will also yield different values too. It is not just a matter of obtaining the profile but understanding the laboratory method that yielded the result. Only then can more confident comparisons be made
Click to expand...

Thats what i meant to say :p :D
 
Hi again,

My original point was that it wasn't about protein content but how it was likely to be potentially misused by people with little understanding of these things. Et al, pellets. It is not the use of pellets in winter but the misuse that causes the problem.
Clearly, as far as you are concerned this is not the case but it is a general forum used by people of all abilities.
I'm sure we all made and no doubt will continue to make mistakes/improvements to our home made recipies but as i say, much money has been squandered by many people over the years on "high protein ingredients" when in actual fact, much of it was wasted due to the fish being able to digest it and it simply went to waste. These are my thoughts alone which as i have said before on here, doesn't necessarily make them correct.
MOST people would be better off sticking to bait manufacturers tried and tested products or use a very simple recipe such as Complan mixed with eggs to form a paste.
It worked 25 years ago and i'm sure it still does although i haven't heard of anybody using it for ages. It was my favourite winter bait in the early nineties and a 3 egg mix would make appx 50-60 boilies, more than enough for a 2-3 day session using it as single hookbaits normally and putting the rest in on leaving so long as there was nobody else there. I caught a number of 20 and 30 lb carp on it. Banana Complan being particularly good on certain waters.
Things have changed significantl since Fred Wiltons original baiting pyramid concept and decent quality baits whether frozen boilies or pastes are available to all for the price of a tenner say?
There are a few diehards like us who continue to tinker with home made recipies because it's the way we are and probably the way we have been brought up?
I would imagine that the vast majority these days don't give a jot about the nutritional value/protein content/amino acid profile of their shop bought bait so long as it catches fish.

I think i'll leave it there.

Regards,
Jeff
 
Why would you think that. Someones on the ball! Just cleaning out a few posts that now on hind sight I would have not presently posted.

Cheers, Jon

PS As far as I'm aware editing does not increase ones posts.

PSS I did not realise I added another post to this yesterday evening - whoops. There one goes for all to see!
 
Last edited:
Fair comment matey & well worth the leg pull! I did not realise my extra additional post yesterday - doh!

I was trying to do this on some posts in the (not so) distant past. Unlike the old board, (retrospectively) edited posts don't get bumped back to the top of the forum so one can stealthily cleanse.

Or like me, just (now) advertise my retractions - one has to laugh!

Cheers, Jon
 
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