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Luck or Skill....?

R

Richard Hamlyn

No Longer a Member
Having got out to the river for 4 days last week before the big freeze set in again I was lucky enough to catch a new PB and it got me wondering. The river I fish means it is not possible to sight fish due to depth and colour so it is a matter of fishing in different areas until getting some action and then trying to get the feeding right to maximize the bites. However as far as I can see that is about as far as the skill level goes when it comes to determining the size of the fish I catch, so my question is for the above situation is it any more skilful to catch a small Barbel as opposed to a whopper?
 
Certainly I think in the long run larger fish fall to the better anglers. But I guess the 'better Anglers may put more time in, however you and I might be the living proof that Lady Luck might be the most important factor.
 
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Richard.
Given the choice of steady or fast water searching for a bigger fish i would choose steady.

Also specifically seeking bigger fish i would target certain areas of river systems that have a history of producing larger specimens.

Then i would hope for some luck

Miles.
 
Richard Hamlyn said:
Having got out to the river for 4 days last week before the big freeze set in again I was lucky enough to catch a new PB and it got me wondering. The river I fish means it is not possible to sight fish due to depth and colour so it is a matter of fishing in different areas until getting some action and then trying to get the feeding right to maximize the bites. However as far as I can see that is about as far as the skill level goes when it comes to determining the size of the fish I catch, so my question is for the above situation is it any more skilful to catch a small Barbel as opposed to a whopper?
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You have got me thinking here....I also managed to get out before the big freeze and managed to lose what was almost certainly a pb barbel. I had been applying my bait during chub trips on a low stock stretch and eventually my chance came...and I fluffed it! Having put in all the hard work does that make me more of a plonker than someone who has lost a mediocre fish without putting in the effort:mad:
 
Richard, to paraphrase another Richard , '' first find your fish , then don't scare them away '' After that I reckon the smaller ones are easier to catch as there are usually more of them . However the big ones get big for a reason , they are greedy ! Big ones more difficult to catch , yes, because there are usually less of them . Barbel are not the hardest fish in the world to outwit , it's finding them that can be the tricky bit . That's usually down to a bit of watercraft and a lot of persistence .
 
Stewart Harris said:
You have got me thinking here....I also managed to get out before the big freeze and managed to lose what was almost certainly a pb barbel. I had been applying my bait during chub trips on a low stock stretch and eventually my chance came...and I fluffed it! Having put in all the hard work does that make me more of a plonker than someone who has lost a mediocre fish without putting in the effort:mad:
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No, I think it was a result for you, even if the outcome wasn't ideal, you put the effort (and the bait in) to give you a chance in difficult conditions.
 
You might think this is a recent debate Mr H but it is one which was done to death on the old forum. The general consensus then seemed to be that you could actually target the bigger fish, even on the lower Severn, though I'm damned if I can recall how you were supposed to go about it.

Basically there were two theory's, the one was the bait and wait method, the other was the catch and move theory.

If you followed the bait and wait method of fishing the idea was that over time and with regular feeding the bigger fish would eventually get confident enough to bully the small ones off the feed and then when you did eventually put a bait to them they would take it with gay abandon.

The other theory was that big fish don't get big by not eating so if they are in the area they will be the first on a bait. If you take that to it's logical conclusion and your first cast produces an average fish you may as well move as there are no big ones in the area.

I'm not sure if that helps at all but it is food for thought.
 
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Adrian Williams said:
The other theory was that big fish don't get big by not eating so if they are in the area they will be the first on a bait. If you take that to it's logical conclusion and your first cast produces an average fish you may as well move as there are no big ones in the area.

I'm not sure if that helps at all but it is food for thought.
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There is a 3rd theory that suggests that the average fish you caught first chuck has disturbed the big ones and they are now on edge. It's not that there are no big ones in that area - they are just not in the mood for taking the same bait the 'tester' got caught on! ;)
 
Congrats on your new pb Richard, and at the end of the season too.
I tend to go with the bait and wait theory on big deep canal type areas like.
I do tend to keep the bait going in over the summer months and have very good success on areas of the severn. However I still think its luck factor is higher than than skill factor proportionally.
You have to have good basic angling skills to start with to be consistant, (I know of a young lad who fishes our syndicate who first chuck had a 16lb2oz barbel) but if you asked him to put a rig together he would struggle. Though he has know gleened alot of info and is coming on very well indeed.
The fact is he put bait on or near the fish at that specific time and date and did well. Another angler on the syndicate is a real bank tramp, and puts hours and hours in( the lucky bleeder) And has yet to get anything over 12lb. Down to IMHO is just luck, the lad was near a big fish and it hung itself, the other lad who prebaits a fair bit in the right conditions just has'nt had the same luck.

Now in gin clear conditions I think skill, or rig placement/type of rig/good rivercraft/a stealthy approach is essential. Though its a little luck to hope that they are having it or not.

Pat
 
Richard,

I have some experience(?) of targetting bigger Barbel on the very river you speak of....

....I used to fish with 2 rods and only 1 bait. Bit of a mad idea you may think - certainly sounds like one that's for sure!!!

This was the rationale behind the "method"

1. The upstream rod was "fished" with just a feeder, no hooklink and bait, and was regularly re-cast as in the usual fishing scenario. This regular re-casting (every 10 minutes) laid down a regular trail of bait and, in my warped mind, replicated exactly what the Barbel were used to, except of course there was no chance of them being spooked by a hooklink and the occasional disturbance of a hooked fish. This would surely get them switched onto the bait.

2. I surmised that the smaller Barbel, Bream and Chub would be onto the bait quickly and would attract the bigger, more wary fish to come in for a peek at what was going on. In my minds eye, these bigger fish would hang back a bit and maybe pick off the odd morsel that got past the smaller ones.

3. That brings me to the downstream road....this was fished with a simple lead arrangement and a long hooklink baited with a small'ish hook and just a scrap of bait - to replicate the scraps of bait that might just get missed by the small fish upstream and trundle into the view of the bigger ones? This rod was cast and left.....until it was time to go home or it was ripped off the rest - whichever came first.

I once caught a syndicate best Barbel a few seasons back doing just this....2 rods - 1 bait ;)

More food for thought???




Paul
 
Paul Thomas said:
Richard,

I have some experience(?) of targetting bigger Barbel on the very river you speak of....

....I used to fish with 2 rods and only 1 bait. Bit of a mad idea you may think - certainly sounds like one that's for sure!!!

This was the rationale behind the "method"

1. The upstream rod was "fished" with just a feeder, no hooklink and bait, and was regularly re-cast as in the usual fishing scenario. This regular re-casting (every 10 minutes) laid down a regular trail of bait and, in my warped mind, replicated exactly what the Barbel were used to, except of course there was no chance of them being spooked by a hooklink and the occasional disturbance of a hooked fish. This would surely get them switched onto the bait.

2. I surmised that the smaller Barbel, Bream and Chub would be onto the bait quickly and would attract the bigger, more wary fish to come in for a peek at what was going on. In my minds eye, these bigger fish would hang back a bit and maybe pick off the odd morsel that got past the smaller ones.

3. That brings me to the downstream road....this was fished with a simple lead arrangement and a long hooklink baited with a small'ish hook and just a scrap of bait - to replicate the scraps of bait that might just get missed by the small fish upstream and trundle into the view of the bigger ones? This rod was cast and left.....until it was time to go home or it was ripped off the rest - whichever came first.

I once caught a syndicate best Barbel a few seasons back doing just this....2 rods - 1 bait ;)

More food for thought???




Paul
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Interesting stuff. I suppose its similar to an approach with the float- getting a steady and fairly consistent stream of bait in and get the fish feeding and confident- albeit that the hook bait is static. I suppose you could achieve a similar outcome by plopping a small bait dropper of munchies just upstream and at regular intervals. Similar disturbance on the cast to a feeder, but no mainline left in the water to potentially spook fish.
 
Thanks for all the input which I think is food for thought for anyone targeting big fish. My personal experience on the big, wide and deep river I fish is as follows. Due to the fact that I live many miles from the river I usually fish sessions that last 3 or 4 days rather than popping down for the day or the odd evening session. I fish well into dark but do not leave the rods out all night as for me I am either fishing or sleeping, but not both. I tend not to do well immediately, and find that by careful introduction of bait according to the level of activity of the fish, my catch rate steadily increases over the total fishing period.

What I do notice is that when I pack up for the night I will introduce bait according to the amount of fish I think are present. When I start again at first light I will not introduce any bait other than what is in the feeder or PVA bag. The first or second bite at this time will invariably produce the largest fish of the day. This would support the theory that having assembled a mixed group of fish in a relatively small area and then allowing the food supply to dwindle means that the largest and greediest fish has taken up residence in the prime food area and therefore is the first on the hook in the morning when the food supply starts up again.

Therefore it strikes me that if I were to create multiple areas along the river similar to the above and fish them sequentially throughout the day then I would increase my chances greatly of getting a large fish. I should point out that on the stretch I fish I have literally miles of river to myself so creating lots of baited areas uninterrupted by other anglers is not a problem. All I would have to do is fish for the first couple of fish in each spot and if no large fish are forthcoming then I would just pop a bit more bait in and return a few hours later to see if the situation had changed.

Having read the excellent replies I have had so far from the likes of Adrian, Patrick and Paul then I realise that the catching of large fish has an element of luck, but to catch large fish consistently must require the level of thought that these anglers have obviously given the subject. So I suppose that has answered my question......... it’s not luck at all……………………………….
 
Richard,

I have previously also adopted the theory you allude to....baiting as many as 6 spots in rotation throughout the day with the intention of fishing them in strict rotation in the evening/night. I found that by baiting regularly and not fishing until later on, I was often rewarded with quick fish in most spots, but not necessarily big fish!! and not in every swim....

....for example, I may take a fish in swim 1, bait it again and move to swim 2. If nothing is forthcoming in swim 2, I'd bait it again and move to swim 3 where another quick fish might come along quickly. Bait up swim 3 and move to swim 4 and so on and so forth.

Once I reach swim 6 I may well be knackered but will have caught a few fish on the way with the promise of further fish on the next rotation, especially from the swims that failed to produce on the previous run.

This routine takes some discipline to work properly but is well worth the effort as you are rarely sat still for too long and always doing something to bring on a capture - actually fishing or baiting up in readiness for your return later. I have personally caught fish all through the night doing this on rare occasions, and in particular recall a night on the Teme when I caught in 5 of 6 swims regularly but had the biggest fish of the night on the 5th visit to 1 particular swim - the biggest fish of the night too!!

Was this bigger fish there all night munching on the free bait? or did I just get unlucky there all evening until the 5th visit??

More food for thought??



Paul
 
Food for thought indeed Richard an excellent thought provoking question.

On another stretch of a deep slow river covered by BAA I noticed an angler upstream on a stretch from where I was fishing (miles of river but he chose next to me practically) And he was piling in boilies every five minutes, however due to the fact the river was 26ft deep at that stretch the boilies where hitting my swim pretty much cock on. I took off my swim feeder and replaced it with a plain lead, i also switched from a large chunk of meat to a bag of old boilies I had in my bag.
The first bite was pretty instant, and from 10am till 6pm I had a red letter day courtesy of my new bait monkey. He packed up fishing and sauntered past with his now much lighter tackle bag and had a chat and quizzed me "what miracle bait" I was using. I pulled out a small tub of dried up shelf life baits to which he disbelieved me. I allowed him to turn my bag inside out to see if he could find any "miracle bait", to which he got even more frustrated.

Pure lack of skill on his part from not gauging the depth of water,

Bit of luck for me to be downstream from him.
 
There is always going to be some element of luck but it appears to me that the anglers who fish more than most tend to catch the larger fish but to a slightly disproportionate level

Because they fish more than most I believe they build up a skill base which is superior to the occasional angler. Part of this skill base is the acquisition of knowledge and it is this knowledge that puts them on the bigger fish.

By fishing more they get to know a lot of useful information which might include; fish location in varying river conditions, feeding times, bait preference and presentation. Being on the bank more than us they get the opportunity to pre bait and also see what and where other anglers catch.
 
John Newman said:
There is always going to be some element of luck but it appears to me that the anglers who fish more than most tend to catch the larger fish but to a slightly disproportionate level

Because they fish more than most I believe they build up a skill base which is superior to the occasional angler. Part of this skill base is the acquisition of knowledge and it is this knowledge that puts them on the bigger fish.

By fishing more they get to know a lot of useful information which might include; fish location in varying river conditions, feeding times, bait preference and presentation. Being on the bank more than us they get the opportunity to pre bait and also see what and where other anglers catch.
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Spot on John...very relevant indeed. Which is why a 'now and then' bloke like me has to rely on luck to an extraordinary degree :D

Richard, take a look here :-

https://barbel.co.uk/site/vbulletin...s/5675-targeting-bigger-barbel-ian-grant.html

Cheers, Dave.
 
Now that is certainly an in depth piece from Ian Grant and there is much to cross relate between this post and the posts by Patrick and Paul.

What I have gathered from all this is that a reasoned, methodical approach based on actual fishing experience on the water fished WILL enable the angler to target the largest Barbel present and statistically increase the chances of success.

I wish I was in a position to carry out a baiting campaign over a period of months in selected swims to prove the theories for myself but alas this is never going to be possible so I will have to be happy with the low doubles I catch.

Two final thoughts from me. Firstly do other anglers feel this "methodical" approach somehow lessens the "magic" of fishing and thus reduces it to a rational exercise?

Secondly it has been pointed out to me that many of my posts merely rake up subjects that have been "done to death" in the past. In that case is there any point in any of us posting anything as its all been done before apparently?
 
Two final thoughts from me. Firstly do other anglers feel this "methodical" approach somehow lessens the "magic" of fishing and thus reduces it to a rational exercise?
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One could argue the same about forum topics! Rationalising the 'luck' of beginers and the 'sucess' of skilled anglers does in some small way take away the magic.

Secondly it has been pointed out to me that many of my posts merely rake up subjects that have been "done to death" in the past. In that case is there any point in any of us posting anything as its all been done before apparently?
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Can the last one out switch off the lights please?
 
As regards subjects that have been "done to death", it is worth considering that new anglers are always moving in to this branch of the sport and visiting the site perhaps for the first time. I have learned from this thread, and more importantly, it has made me THINK about my approach more than a little rather than just following habit.
So...for all the experienced guys on the site :) be patient if subjects do keep cropping up...I know they can often be found by simply doing a search on past threads, but seeing the responses really does help the likes of me and other less experienced barbel anglers.
A great thread, and a big thanks to all who share there experience so freely on the site.
 
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