Leyton Jones
Senior Member
Had a 10lb 4 barb last night from the Warks Avon with some old tail damage any ideas as to what may have caused it?:confused:
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Tail damage
- Thread starter Leyton Jones
- Start date
David Gauntlett
Senior Member
That looks horribly like the damage inflicted on pike years ago (notably in Ireland) where the tail was cut for future identification (to discount re-captured fish) It was generally accepted back then that the morons responsible were of a Teutonic bent.
One can only hope that the damage to this barbel is from natural causes, rather than another example of such madness
Cheers, Dave.
One can only hope that the damage to this barbel is from natural causes, rather than another example of such madness
Cheers, Dave.
Ray Walton
Senior Member
Finrot of a kind.
Hi Leyton...The cause is a type of bacteria that eats through the bone rays of the fin and can usually be found more commonly on the tail or less common on pectoral fins. As the bacteria eats through the bone rays, the damaged part of the fin will hang, split along the membrane and eventually drop off.
Although some may assume it is otters taking a munch or angling damage caused by line, it is not necessarily the case on most fish.
If the fish is younger, the missing piece can re-generate to a high degree.
If older, then it will just heal over with no re-growth of the fin.
If the bacterium is/are active on part of the fin, it will usually show a red inflammation and sometimes white dots which will show the bacteria's progression path.
If this is the case, then it can be treated with 'Friars Balsam' or other good antiseptic, which will kill the bacteria infection dead in its tracks, seal the wound and the fish will heal itself from the inside... if the water quality is ok.
Re-generation of the fin can be quite noticeable on re-capture (if treated) in quite a short period of time if the fish is generally fit and healthy and depending on the water quality.
Your picture shows that it has lost part of the fin and has healed naturally, so does not need treatment. I don't think that this one will re-generate any further, it has just healed over.
Below are a couple of links where if you scroll through the photos, you will eventually pick out similar pieces of tail missing (top, bottom or both) on various species of fish.
http://www.davistackle.co.uk/fisherynews/royaltynews/147-royalty-fishery-report-30-june-2010
http://www.davistackle.info/Archive_2008.htm
http://www.ringwoodfishing.co.uk/rd...t=Photo Gallery (Barbel)&SPE=barbel&phdisp=20
It the bacteria damage is severe and unchecked, the fish could lose the top, bottom or both, where it will then impair swimming/movement thus leaving the fish open to predation or it will eventually die if it loses all the tail.
The Friars Balsam below only costs 99p-£1.60p from the various Chemists.
Just dab it on ‘neat’ all along the damaged area both sides and in between with a cotton bud and return the fish.
When the fish is caught again at a later stage, you may hopefully see a bit of a miracle.
Hope this helps….Ray
Hi Leyton...The cause is a type of bacteria that eats through the bone rays of the fin and can usually be found more commonly on the tail or less common on pectoral fins. As the bacteria eats through the bone rays, the damaged part of the fin will hang, split along the membrane and eventually drop off.
Although some may assume it is otters taking a munch or angling damage caused by line, it is not necessarily the case on most fish.
If the fish is younger, the missing piece can re-generate to a high degree.
If older, then it will just heal over with no re-growth of the fin.
If the bacterium is/are active on part of the fin, it will usually show a red inflammation and sometimes white dots which will show the bacteria's progression path.
If this is the case, then it can be treated with 'Friars Balsam' or other good antiseptic, which will kill the bacteria infection dead in its tracks, seal the wound and the fish will heal itself from the inside... if the water quality is ok.
Re-generation of the fin can be quite noticeable on re-capture (if treated) in quite a short period of time if the fish is generally fit and healthy and depending on the water quality.
Your picture shows that it has lost part of the fin and has healed naturally, so does not need treatment. I don't think that this one will re-generate any further, it has just healed over.
Below are a couple of links where if you scroll through the photos, you will eventually pick out similar pieces of tail missing (top, bottom or both) on various species of fish.
http://www.davistackle.co.uk/fisherynews/royaltynews/147-royalty-fishery-report-30-june-2010
http://www.davistackle.info/Archive_2008.htm
http://www.ringwoodfishing.co.uk/rd...t=Photo Gallery (Barbel)&SPE=barbel&phdisp=20
It the bacteria damage is severe and unchecked, the fish could lose the top, bottom or both, where it will then impair swimming/movement thus leaving the fish open to predation or it will eventually die if it loses all the tail.
The Friars Balsam below only costs 99p-£1.60p from the various Chemists.
Just dab it on ‘neat’ all along the damaged area both sides and in between with a cotton bud and return the fish.
When the fish is caught again at a later stage, you may hopefully see a bit of a miracle.
Hope this helps….Ray
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Neil Partridge
Senior Member
there is a barbel swimming around in the severn with its anal fin missing that i have actually caught twice & wondered whether this was fin rot or if it had been 'cut off' either purposefully or whether by a line during a scrap, it had however heeled over cleanly.
Leyton Jones
Senior Member
Thanks Ray,
I've seen several fish in our stretch that have damage to the tail fins one looks very very badly chewed and others with a couple of splits or bullet hole type markings and as this is another one for the list I guessed it was time to ask. Was expecting replies of otters line damage but your explanation makes more sense as we have found no evidence of such predation.
I'll pick some of the friars up in the morning and hopefully get the chance to treat these fish over the coming years.
Once again thank you.
Leyton
I've seen several fish in our stretch that have damage to the tail fins one looks very very badly chewed and others with a couple of splits or bullet hole type markings and as this is another one for the list I guessed it was time to ask. Was expecting replies of otters line damage but your explanation makes more sense as we have found no evidence of such predation.
I'll pick some of the friars up in the morning and hopefully get the chance to treat these fish over the coming years.
Once again thank you.
Leyton
Neil Partridge
Senior Member
so will i
Ray Walton
Senior Member
Generally, line damage will split the fin 'membrane' inwards between the bone rays on the tail or pectoral fins, which is quite common to see on barbel and chub.
Landing net mesh holes or smaller unsuitable landing net frames/mesh length and width, can and will cause damage in a similar way, especially if the barbel is lifted to where the fish bends double into a semi-circle and the tail fin edge is pressured and forced outwards beween the mesh holes. The same can occur with the Dorsal Fin and Pectoral fins, especially if lifting and carrying a barbel in the landing net up a high bank.
Often, an 'unhooked' barbel being lifted from the water or up the bank can also cause splits in the fins.
Sometimes the hook which is in the lip or has penetrated through the lip to the outside can occassionaly get accidently caught in the mesh, causing the barbel to hang up somewhere in the inside of the net. Sometimes the point/barb of the hook can release itself under the lifting pressure and the fish will drop down, possibly rasping against the side of the mesh. Again this can cause fin splits if they get caught up in the process.
...Ray
Landing net mesh holes or smaller unsuitable landing net frames/mesh length and width, can and will cause damage in a similar way, especially if the barbel is lifted to where the fish bends double into a semi-circle and the tail fin edge is pressured and forced outwards beween the mesh holes. The same can occur with the Dorsal Fin and Pectoral fins, especially if lifting and carrying a barbel in the landing net up a high bank.
Often, an 'unhooked' barbel being lifted from the water or up the bank can also cause splits in the fins.
Sometimes the hook which is in the lip or has penetrated through the lip to the outside can occassionaly get accidently caught in the mesh, causing the barbel to hang up somewhere in the inside of the net. Sometimes the point/barb of the hook can release itself under the lifting pressure and the fish will drop down, possibly rasping against the side of the mesh. Again this can cause fin splits if they get caught up in the process.
...Ray
T
Tom Herbert
Guest
Ray, would you say the same of this fish................... all the fins where "missing" right down to the root except the anal fin which was complete!
Sorry the pictures are rubbish, they where taken on my phone!
Sorry the pictures are rubbish, they where taken on my phone!
Ray Walton
Senior Member
Hi Tom...Not quite sure about that one. I have never seen one with all the fins in that small condition. First thought on looking was a possible birth deformation. However, the tail looks similar to what I explained above where the bone rays have been destroyed right along to the flesh.
I notice that it also has some red blemishes on the side which may also be relevant to the overall health of the fish. No doubt, it is possible that the bacteria may be the cause and has infected and damaged all of the fins. Well worth treating if you catch it again including the fins and the red blemishes/lesions. When a fish is seen in this condition, usually the 'eyes' may be misty or a white cataract effect can be seen. Although some of these features can be found on very old fish which are going backwards, it is not always the case, and it can be due to ill health, water quality etc to where the barbel's immune system is lowered and is more open to infections and cannot heal itself to any great effect.
I have seen what look like very old sick barbel that are seemingly on their last legs and I thought at the time that they would soon disappear and die. Some do, but others are just ill and out of condition, (just like humans at times) and they can/do recover quite dramatically.
A bit of help from us will go a long way to increase their chance of survival at this time.
If you want to tell me what river and area you caught it from (on here or by PM), it might ring a bell and put a bit more light on the subject.
If you catch it again, try and get some sharper pictures at different angles, as this sort of info is very important to me and is passed on to the scientific community for their views and interest.
Don't forget that the 'barbel' is used as a sentinel species and many of their ailments have human equivalent counterparts. the barbel live in river water and we also drink the same and that is the important link, despite it being treated/chlorinated after abstraction, but not everything is removed.
Some of the 'left in' properties of abstracted river water are 'accumulative' over a longer period of time. ...Hope this is of interest....Ray
I notice that it also has some red blemishes on the side which may also be relevant to the overall health of the fish. No doubt, it is possible that the bacteria may be the cause and has infected and damaged all of the fins. Well worth treating if you catch it again including the fins and the red blemishes/lesions. When a fish is seen in this condition, usually the 'eyes' may be misty or a white cataract effect can be seen. Although some of these features can be found on very old fish which are going backwards, it is not always the case, and it can be due to ill health, water quality etc to where the barbel's immune system is lowered and is more open to infections and cannot heal itself to any great effect.
I have seen what look like very old sick barbel that are seemingly on their last legs and I thought at the time that they would soon disappear and die. Some do, but others are just ill and out of condition, (just like humans at times) and they can/do recover quite dramatically.
A bit of help from us will go a long way to increase their chance of survival at this time.
If you want to tell me what river and area you caught it from (on here or by PM), it might ring a bell and put a bit more light on the subject.
If you catch it again, try and get some sharper pictures at different angles, as this sort of info is very important to me and is passed on to the scientific community for their views and interest.
Don't forget that the 'barbel' is used as a sentinel species and many of their ailments have human equivalent counterparts. the barbel live in river water and we also drink the same and that is the important link, despite it being treated/chlorinated after abstraction, but not everything is removed.
Some of the 'left in' properties of abstracted river water are 'accumulative' over a longer period of time. ...Hope this is of interest....Ray
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Stu Morgan
Member
fin damage
WE seem to be seeing more of this bottom lobe damage that has coincided with the increase in popularity of using braided mainlines. Agree with Ray that some are a type of fin rot, but I have seen a few fresh ones where the cut is recent and doesnt look like a bite. I don't or haven't seen many lobe damaged fish on very lightly fished venues, hence why I think that braid maybe the culprit on some. IMO anyway.
WE seem to be seeing more of this bottom lobe damage that has coincided with the increase in popularity of using braided mainlines. Agree with Ray that some are a type of fin rot, but I have seen a few fresh ones where the cut is recent and doesnt look like a bite. I don't or haven't seen many lobe damaged fish on very lightly fished venues, hence why I think that braid maybe the culprit on some. IMO anyway.
Craig Wood
Senior Member
I think you may have a point stu..i wont use braid main line for the very reason i think if it gets wrapped around a fish during fight it could cause alot of damage..i know some carp anglers who have stopped using braid mainline for that very reason..but im no expert and its just my opinion..
Stu Morgan
Member
braid
I think the damage is likely to occur when strilking at line bites. You get a wrap round, strike and It does cut very easily. I damaged a barbel that rolled over on the mainline whilst in the net, nasty cut that thankfully healed as I recaptured the fish 2 seasons later. Risks are minimal and I know anglers who have never had any trouble at all...that they know of, thats the issue.
I think the damage is likely to occur when strilking at line bites. You get a wrap round, strike and It does cut very easily. I damaged a barbel that rolled over on the mainline whilst in the net, nasty cut that thankfully healed as I recaptured the fish 2 seasons later. Risks are minimal and I know anglers who have never had any trouble at all...that they know of, thats the issue.
Ray Walton
Senior Member
Here is a pic below of a barbel tail where the bacteria (white bits) has just started to eat through the first top bone ray and is hanging over.
The white dot and white faint area below the initial eaten thru bone ray, indicates the path of the next bit to be eaten away by the bacteria, and which will eventually hang and drop off... unless treated pronto.
This picture was taken of the same fish caught again after treatment.
Quite miraculously, the top bone ray had uprighted itself and re-generated a piece of bone cartilage in between the v to hold it together. You can also see the healed darker red scaring of the damaged area.
Below is a pic of one that is not so lucky and you can clearly see what damage the bacteria can cause if not checked.
The white dot and white faint area below the initial eaten thru bone ray, indicates the path of the next bit to be eaten away by the bacteria, and which will eventually hang and drop off... unless treated pronto.
This picture was taken of the same fish caught again after treatment.
Quite miraculously, the top bone ray had uprighted itself and re-generated a piece of bone cartilage in between the v to hold it together. You can also see the healed darker red scaring of the damaged area.
Below is a pic of one that is not so lucky and you can clearly see what damage the bacteria can cause if not checked.
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Tim Walden
Senior Member
Very interesting guys. I've had a look back at some pictures of barbel from the Great Ouse and the Wye for comparison. Although there were a couple of WYe fish with the damage, the percentage of fish with the damage on the Ouse was considerably greater. Don't know what this means, but am open to any suggestions!!
Barry Garwood
Senior Member & Supporter
Ray was that fish cured with friars balsam?
Graham Benyon
Member
I hope we don`t have the same problem here as what happened on the continent with the big carp! Specimen hunters started marking the fish they had caught by cutting pieces off the tail. Some of the big carp ended up badly mutilated
David Gauntlett
Senior Member
I hope we don`t have the same problem here as what happened on the continent with the big carp! Specimen hunters started marking the fish they had caught by cutting pieces off the tail. Some of the big carp ended up badly mutilated
See my post (post 2) Graham...the madness you mention pops up now and then, but hopefully what we are seeing here is what Ray has suggested, rather than that (Not that bacterial fin rot could ever be described as good
)Cheers, Dave.
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Leyton Jones
Senior Member
I don't strike at liners Stu, sit on your hands mate, the tip'll go round in the end!!
Bad angling practice is bad angling practice and accidents happen in all forms of sport regardless of how careful people are or even how many DVD's you've made and of course you can never legislate for stupidity but to point the finger at braid as the be all end all of this issue isn't right. Some have had issues using it but their will be hundreds more that have never had an issue (that they know of...yes yes never ending that one).
Thanks for the replies chaps, many more reports of captures with simliar issues on another forum from other rivers like The Dove Don Derwent Ribble Thames Trent and the Avon seems to be an issue across the country on certain numbers of barbel.....one to watch out for on your next catch then go thru the is that braid damage/fin rot/cormarants/otters/minks/polish/ incert your own answer here debate and then put some friars balsam on it and think you've done the right thing!
Bad angling practice is bad angling practice and accidents happen in all forms of sport regardless of how careful people are or even how many DVD's you've made and of course you can never legislate for stupidity but to point the finger at braid as the be all end all of this issue isn't right. Some have had issues using it but their will be hundreds more that have never had an issue (that they know of...yes yes never ending that one).
Thanks for the replies chaps, many more reports of captures with simliar issues on another forum from other rivers like The Dove Don Derwent Ribble Thames Trent and the Avon seems to be an issue across the country on certain numbers of barbel.....one to watch out for on your next catch then go thru the is that braid damage/fin rot/cormarants/otters/minks/polish/ incert your own answer here debate and then put some friars balsam on it and think you've done the right thing!
Stu Morgan
Member
Liners
Waiting for the tip to round when using braid is good angling. I wasn't singling out braid as the only reason for the dreaded lobe damage, but IMO it is a strong contender.
I like braid, yes like it and have used it plenty of times and it lasts for ages on the reel and is great for not leaving gear stuck on the bottom, but and in my mind it is a but, I think it does damage fish, especially in the wrong hands.
I have come across it now many times whilst diving in our lakes and rivers and it is always the same. The damn stuff is nigh on unbreakable, cuts like a knife and doesn't rot over time like nylon does. Get my fin buckles caught on nylon and at any breaking strain we are likely to use in our lakes & rivers , I can break it with my hands easily. Braid, forget it.
Now I know that diving has little or no swaying on the matter but the fact is that it's down there and I do not wish to encourage wide spread use of braid especially to the young or inexperienced anglers that we are told frequent this forum.
I for one however, will not be found to be casting judgement on any others who choose to use it, because that is their choice, and who am I to pass judgement, just another angler.
Braid does/ can cut fish, I have done it myself, and seen it on five occasions so far. As yet (though I am sure there are those that have), I have not seen the same with mono, which as a percentage, its use must be massive compared to braid.
Thats how I feel about it.
Waiting for the tip to round when using braid is good angling. I wasn't singling out braid as the only reason for the dreaded lobe damage, but IMO it is a strong contender.
I like braid, yes like it and have used it plenty of times and it lasts for ages on the reel and is great for not leaving gear stuck on the bottom, but and in my mind it is a but, I think it does damage fish, especially in the wrong hands.
I have come across it now many times whilst diving in our lakes and rivers and it is always the same. The damn stuff is nigh on unbreakable, cuts like a knife and doesn't rot over time like nylon does. Get my fin buckles caught on nylon and at any breaking strain we are likely to use in our lakes & rivers , I can break it with my hands easily. Braid, forget it.
Now I know that diving has little or no swaying on the matter but the fact is that it's down there and I do not wish to encourage wide spread use of braid especially to the young or inexperienced anglers that we are told frequent this forum.
I for one however, will not be found to be casting judgement on any others who choose to use it, because that is their choice, and who am I to pass judgement, just another angler.
Braid does/ can cut fish, I have done it myself, and seen it on five occasions so far. As yet (though I am sure there are those that have), I have not seen the same with mono, which as a percentage, its use must be massive compared to braid.
Thats how I feel about it.
Leyton Jones
Senior Member
Theres no right answer here all we can do is look out for this issue and make the right judgements without out actually seeing the fish getting damaged i guess will are all left guessing