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Do you think there were Other UK Barbel species than barbus barbus in the past

Mark Swaby

Senior Member
After looking at the home page photo of Jon's Dearne fish it looks slightly different to other Barbus Barbus you see caught in the UK.When i look at the Dearne gallery there are also other similar looking fish.That massive long sloping forehead and sticking out snout is so distinct and unusual.I caught a similar fish from the Colne years ago and seen a couple of similar fish since ,but they are rare.After seeing Spanish Barbel and finding out that there are quite a few species,which all differ slightly (some with that same long sloping forehead).Do you think it was possible we had more than one Barbel species in the past.What are your thoughts.
 
Re: History of barbel in the UK #7 [-

Ref, old bfw forum..

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Hi All,

Millions of years ago, Britain was connected to the European mainland via glaciers in the last ice age. Within these glaciers were vast connecting lakes of fresh water. As the glaciers started to melt, slowly the formation of our mainland coastline and outlying islands started to emerge. Also, inland, as the glaciers melted, the formation began of the lakes and lochs we know today.

Even as little as 10,000 years ago, the British landscape remained something like the tundra regions of the present day arctic regions of Europe and North America, open and treeless with low-growing plants between the rocks and glacial debris.

As those massive glaciers and freshwater lakes receded, they slowly over many years, took with them the fish species contained within.

One such species, the barbel, ended up in reality as being isolated within the Eastern river systems of mainland Britain.

The systems of the Trent and Thames became the home of present day barbus barbus ancestors.

To this day, the true extent of the barbels Eastern colonisation after the last ice age is still NOT known and there are those that believe the extent of this colonisation went far beyond the Trent and Thames systems with possibly Norfolk and South Eastern river systems being originally included.

There can be no doubting though, that the Trent and Thames systems are the true postdated ice age indigenous homes of barbus barbus in our country today.

The spread of barbel into our countries other river systems are in reality, a modern day event that has been undertook primerily over the last century. These re-locations or stockings of barbel into other river systems are well documented throughout that period although it should be remembered that in some cases, it has been proven that barbel were present in some rivers prior to the last century.

Some points on barbel species and their classification;

Barbus Barbus, our own native species widespread also on mainland Europe, is the LARGEST amongst the European related group of barbel.

The Portuguese Barbel, (Barbus Comiza) grows to a maximum of 35cm with weights averaging only 500-700grams. Its head is more flattened and elongated than in other barbels, and has a slightly upturned snout tip. The dorsal fin base is immediately above the pelvic fin bases. It is found in the middle reaches of the Tagus, Jarama, Guadiana and Guadalquivir rivers of Portugal and Spain. Barbus Comiza, is considered to be a sub-species of Barbus Barbus.

The Italian Barbel, (Barbus Plebejus) grows to a maximum size of 50cm and can weigh in excess of 6kilos. Much the same shape as Barbus Barbus but is heavily spotted on both body and fins. This species occurs throughout Italy and Slovenia and is to, a sub-species of Barbus Barbus.

The Mediterranean Barbel, (Barbus Meridionalis) sometimes called the "Southern Barbel" due to it being located widespread in the rivers of south central Europe. Exceptionally big specimens may grow to 30cm in length but are relatively small in comparison to Barbus Barbus.

Thracian Barbel (Barbus Cyclolepis) is only found in South Eastern Europe and grows to a maximum length of 25-30cm. This is a lightly shaded fish with a short-based dorsal fin.

In conclusion; Quote;

Taxonomically, the barbels are a complicated group of fish. Here, a simple arrangement has been suggested;
Three main species, (Barbel, Mediterranean Barbel, Thracian Barbel) with six other species (Iberian, Portuguese, Italian, Peloponnesian, Euobean and Greek barbels) that are closely related to the three main species.

However, further research may indicate that this simple approach requires modification. For example, the three species from the Iberian Peninsula (the Iberian Barbus Bocagei, the Portuguese Barbus Comiza and the most westerly population of Mediterranean Barbel Barbus Mendionalis) have been split into seven species by some researchers and named as follows;
B. bocagei; B. comiza; B. graellsii; B. guiraonis; B. haasi; B.microcephalus and B.scalteri.

Similarly, in southeast Europe, from Italy eastwards, the barbel overlaps with the Mediterranean barbel, which overlaps with the Thracian barbel and four other species have been described that might be subspecies of one of these; B. plebejus, a sub-species of B. barbus; B. pelopennesius of B.meridionalis; B.euboicus and B. graecus of B. cyclolepis.

Yet there is also the question as to whether the Mediterranean barbel has other valid sub-species. B. m.caninus from the rivers draining from the Italian Alps and the B.m. petenyi from the Danube System.
The entire situation is in need or urgent, objective research including thorough DNA analyses of all European barbel populations.


There you go then all.

Regards,

Lee.

.............................
Found this comprehensive reply from Lee to a similar question from the old forum Mark. Not sure if there is a definitive answer.
Dave
 
Back in the 1980's, you could buy juvenile European different species of barbel from UK aquarium shops and you probably still can today. I think some of those could have possibly have ended up in UK rivers.
 
That makes sense Ray, possibly some of these unusual fish could be offspring or hybrids.The discription of the Portuguese comiza,(i thought it was comizo)longer flatter head with an upturned snout is what i see in the homepage fish and the others i mentioned,(though they are not exactly the same as the foreign fish). Please do not think i am demeaning Jon's fish,its a cracker,i love all Barbus species and strive to learn as much as i can. We also now know some of these Spanish barbel grow larger than Barbus Barbus,with fish to 35lb in photos. Thanks Dave for sourcing that ,i knew there were a few types in Spain but not 7. So DNA would be the only way to tell but could it prove an ancient link,if we messed around with bringing in imports in the 80's.
 
I'm not sure if I read the original post correctly, but if it was originally asking whether we thought there was a possibility that traces of the DNA of another species of barbel survived down the centuries in indigenous Dearne barbel, or those of a river that it flows into, then it has to be a no.

The Dearne would have been so polluted in the 19th century that the barbel population could not have survived. Of fishable species, only trout would have survived in the highest tributaries of the system, and they would have eliminated all other large species by competition and eating the fry.

South Yorkshire's major rivers, as well as most of West Yorkshire's, are a very recent miracle of recovery.

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/news...ng-team/the-rebirth-of-the-river-dons-fishery

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/first-spawned-salmon-found-in-river-dearne-for-150-years
 
Too true Graham.. 100% sure my Barbel was a stocked fish from Calverton.
I'm not sure if I read the original post correctly, but if it was originally asking whether we thought there was a possibility that traces of the DNA of another species of barbel survived down the centuries in indigenous Dearne barbel, or those of a river that it flows into, then it has to be a no.

The Dearne would have been so polluted in the 19th century that the barbel population could not have survived. Of fishable species, only trout would have survived in the highest tributaries of the system, and they would have eliminated all other large species by competition and eating the fry.

South Yorkshire's major rivers, as well as most of West Yorkshire's, are a very recent miracle of recovery.

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/news...ng-team/the-rebirth-of-the-river-dons-fishery

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/first-spawned-salmon-found-in-river-dearne-for-150-years
 
Some barbel were introduced on the Dearne before any official nra/ ea calverton stocking Jon. Nicked from the Trent and probably other rivers and put in the Dearne in the area that has traditionally done the biggest fish in the river. As early as 2004 fish of over 14lb were taken. These were not calverton stocked fish as it wasn't until the back end of the 90s the river was officially stocked with small calverton barbel.

Either way a superb fish, well done.
 
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