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Cyclical nature of waters

Stuart Wright

Stuart Wright

Senior Member
Evening all,

Have been getting ahead of myself and researching potential venues for the spring, mostly pits and reservoirs, and have once again come across something that I've often wondered about in the past: why do some waters appear to have peaks, or at least very long cycles, in terms of their fishing?

For example, I read this earlier "Today, however, Sywell Reservoir is now in decline, and current catch statistics suggest the best years in terms of fishing are now in the past". Statistics do indeed appear to confirm this, but why do you think this happens? If a water produces fish to specimen sizes during one decade, why should this suddenly stop during the next? The strain off the fish will obviously remain the same, conditions in the water may not visibly have altered, so why the change??

Another couple of examples local to me would be TC pit, and Queenford Lagoon - both hugely important specimen waters during the 80s but a shadow of their former selves now.

Anyway, thought it might make for a useful discussion/ debate, so fire away with your theories!! :)

Stu
 
Not only waters but fish species - what I was banging on about for four or five years on old and new BFW, about barbel, and years before this on fly sites, and, before them and the Internut, in the real world, having seen over a lifetime what suddenly "did" for boomtime perch, roach, chub and other stuff (remember me on easy-to-point-a-finger scapegoat predators?). Some misread me and branded me a bunnyhugger, an otter lover, a be-sandalled cloud cuckoo land-dweller etc: how very WRONG!
 
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So what are your theories for the reasons then, Paul? Obviously in the case of Perch it was disease, but they've now recovered.

Waters themselves don't always seem to bounce back though like fish species? Or do they? Can anyone think of an example where a water has consistently produced specimen fish at some stage but then failed to do so for maybe 10 or 20 years before then suddenly starting to produce again?
 
No particular reason, except that things fall apart [and the centre cannot hold], as W.B. Yeats, the great Irish poet, wrote an age ago - here's his "pome":


The Second Coming

William Butler Yates


Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
 
I am a great believer that 'year classes' have a lot to do with the cyclical nature of a lot of waters. Beneficial or adverse condition over the first few years of a fishes life. I also believe that it is adverse conditions that produce a good number of specimens. Most of the fry and young fish dying will leave behind the very toughest, with a reduced competition for food. Beneficial conditions producing greater numbers of fish.
No scientific evidence, pome, or great big I told you so. Just a thought.
Shaun
 
And just the sort of thought I was looking for - thanks Shaun.

Given that your train of thought is along the 'survival of the fittest' lines, would you not expect subsequent year classes to display some of the same characteristics in terms of potential to grow to specimen sizes?

I can see how your explanation would work over the short term - i.e. Favourable fry recruitment may result in less potential for specimen fish - but would that explain why reservoirs and pits such as the examples given above don't really seem to recover to the same levels of productiveness as seen in the past, even if there are a few adverse years in the intervening period?

Interesting stuff.
 
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remember also the weed growth and waterlife such as snails insects ect ect can suffer badly in some climatic conditions, add to this poor survival of year classes of hatching of fish because of same conditions ect and theres a big gap in the waters recovery
rate as far as the fish go
 
Good point John.

So what do we think these 'adverse conditions' are exactly? I'm assuming they can't be purely climatic otherwise you would see national (or at least regional) trends, which doesn't appear to be the case, and it would seem to me (I may be wrong) that the cycles of waters are far more unique, even if they are next door to each other.
 
through personal observations over the past 50 years i think that the balance on a water can be very delicate a bit like going up a ladder only one place to go when the summits reached and thats downward, i can remember years ago on walthamstow ressies when the average sized perch i was catching was over 3lb, then a lot of the water plants growing near the edge started dissapearing along with the perch now bear in mind these were reservoirs so water quality wasnt in question, thats why i think extreme weather can effect waters
 
A good example of non climatic changes would be us anglers.
In my youth I fished a Crawley lake, catching good numbers of Tench to just under 4lb, could not get one over 4lb. Then came the boom in Carp fishing. Banks of 3 or 4 rods all the way up the sides of the lake, and a staggering amount of bait being chucked in.
The first change I noticed was that my early season sessions from the dam end were blanks, rather than the 6-14 Tench I was used to. The Tench I believe choosing to stay in the shallower water, where the carpers were, to feast on the boillies. I gave the lake a rest for a number of seasons, not wanting to compete for a swim and a bit of water to fish in.
A few years later I came back to the lake, this time fishing it in late February and early March, very few winter carpers in those days. The second change was that the Tench were much bigger, most sessions producing a 5lber, and Tench caught to 9lb, not by me though,
After a few years the lake changed from being a council run day ticket water, to a club water. The number of anglers fishing the lake declined dramatically. I am told the Tench fishing steadily declined, but the fishing for small and medium sized Bream became very good.
The moral of this is that it is probably not a good idea to have a favourite venue or species. Too late for me as the challenge of getting a Barbel from the Sussex Ouse has me well hooked. Must try fishing for Mullet this year.
Shaun
 
What I'm thinking with some local pits Stu, TC being a prime example, is that they have now reached a level where there is ALWAYS successful fry recruitment, due to the numbers of fish present. This in turn means there are always lots of smaller fish coming through and sustained competition for food, which keeps the ceiling weight relatively low. If the water was seeing a lot of nutritional food (boilies) it might be a different story, but I think there are just too many mouths for the water to start producing really really big fish again. Cant comment on Queenford as I've never fished it, don't know if you still can?
 
Hello mate,

I think you're probably spot on in the case of TC - there seems to be a very standard size (modest) for both the tench bream in there, with the occasional fish that goes slightly bigger.

Not so sure about somewhere like Sywell though. Based on catch rates - there seems to be a fairly high proportion of blanks for those that fish there (I've had a few myself) - it doesn't suggest that sheer numbers and competition for food could solely explain the lower ceiling on weights compared to the water in its prime. Does anyone else have any experience of Sywell that may be able to confirm or dispel this?
 
Some waters seem to produce big fish of a given species year after year. The tench in Johnson's Lakes in Kent, are a good example that fits this description. For various reasons these lakes are hostile environments that constantly limit fry recruitment, allowing only low numbers of fry to survive, which in turn leads to low levels of competition for food.... hence consistently high growth rates occur with those fish that make it through into adulthood.

In other waters a good spawning year can tip the balance against the fish achieving good growth rates due to overcrowding stunting their growth. It can even result in the original adult stock dieing off due to being unable to sustain the energy demand of their body frame, as their offspring literally eat them out of existence... then as these offspring grow on, their numbers gradually get depleted and they start reaching specimen sizes themselves. Thus the situation becomes cyclic.

Alternatively the success of a year class of one species can topple and succeed the reign of another species. There are so many variables that it is impossible to set any hard and fast ecological rules, except that the less fish there are, the bigger they are likely to be.
 
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Shaun Morris said:
A good example of non climatic changes would be us anglers.
In my youth I fished a Crawley lake, catching good numbers of Tench to just under 4lb, could not get one over 4lb. Then came the boom in Carp fishing. Banks of 3 or 4 rods all the way up the sides of the lake, and a staggering amount of bait being chucked in.
The first change I noticed was that my early season sessions from the dam end were blanks, rather than the 6-14 Tench I was used to. The Tench I believe choosing to stay in the shallower water, where the carpers were, to feast on the boillies. I gave the lake a rest for a number of seasons, not wanting to compete for a swim and a bit of water to fish in.
A few years later I came back to the lake, this time fishing it in late February and early March, very few winter carpers in those days. The second change was that the Tench were much bigger, most sessions producing a 5lber, and Tench caught to 9lb, not by me though,
After a few years the lake changed from being a council run day ticket water, to a club water. The number of anglers fishing the lake declined dramatically. I am told the Tench fishing steadily declined, but the fishing for small and medium sized Bream became very good.
The moral of this is that it is probably not a good idea to have a favourite venue or species. Too late for me as the challenge of getting a Barbel from the Sussex Ouse has me well hooked. Must try fishing for Mullet this year.
Shaun
Click to expand...

Cambell's Lake in Tilgate, eh?... I had my first 4lb tench from there - in 1965, I think! There were no tench or bream in there at the time, just roach, rudd, tench, perch and pike. I was 15 years old and had a 1.15 roach on the same night.
 
Chris Turnbull said:
Some waters seem to produce big fish of a given species year after year. The tench in Johnson's Lakes in Kent, are a good example that fits this description. For various reasons these lakes are hostile environments that constantly limit fry recruitment, allowing only low numbers of fry to survive, which in turn leads to low levels of competition for food.... hence consistently high growth rates occur with those fish that make it through into adulthood.

In other waters a good spawning year can tip the balance against the fish achieving good growth rates due to overcrowding stunting their growth. It can even result in the original adult stock dieing off due to being unable to sustain the energy demand of their body frame, as their offspring literally eat them out of existence... then as these offspring grow on, their numbers gradually get depleted and they start reaching specimen sizes themselves. Thus the situation becomes cyclic.

Alternatively the success of a year class of one species can topple and succeed the reign of another species. There are so many variables that it is impossible to set any hard and fast ecological rules, except that the less fish there are, the bigger they are likely to be.
Click to expand...

Only just noticed this, cheers Chris. Maybe we should start throwing loads of tench and bream in the river then Stu :D:D
 
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