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Barbel Nutrition Requirements

Jon Whelan

Senior Member
Evening all,

I have been making my own boilies/pastes for a year now & would like them to have a specific nutrient profile closer to barbel essential needs. Even so, trying to find reliable data is tricky.

Can anyone point me in the general direction of the daily nutrients (amino acids, fatty acids, vitamins & minerals) that barbel need to sustain good health. I appreciate that across any given season/year, composition/concentration/health will influence their needs.

Many thanks in advance

Jon
 
There is whole bunch of stuff out there (mainly in science journals). Accessible fefree ones include:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...T+to+1330+GMT;+Singapore+1930+SGT+to+2130+SGT

Some will be pay-per-view unless you have university e-journal access
Or you can use science serach engines: eg Scirus
http://www.scirus.com/srsapp/search?q=barbel+diet+requirements&t=all&sort=0&g=s
for this:
Condition, growth and food conversion in barbel, Barbus barbus (L.) juveniles under different temperature/diet combinations
Kamiński, RafaŁ / Kamler, Ewa / Wolnicki, Jacek / Sikorska, Justyna / WaŁowski, Jakub ,
Journal of Thermal Biology, 35 (8), p.422, Dec 2010
 
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Agree with Mark that from practical perspective the JB book is worth a shot.
Nick Gile's Nature of Barbel is also worth a read.
 
Agree with Mark that from practical perspective the JB book is worth a shot.
Nick Gile's Nature of Barbel is also worth a read.

...if you can stomach the cost.

The Nick Giles book always seems to get north of £35.00 these days, and a while back a few sellers were asking £65.00 BIN. It is just a thin paperback after all. I have a copy and it is a very good book though, and much more than its name would suggest — there are chapters on cane rods(by Edward Barder) etc. There is one currently on ebay without a stiff buy-it-now price, the link to it is below.




http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Nick-Giles-Na...0504640955?pt=Non_Fiction&hash=item43a36d09bb
 
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...if you can stomache the cost.
Yes the 2nd hand market for that is fairly outrageous. Nick did say he was going to publish an updated 2nd Edition about a year back but yet to appear.

However I said "read" not buy - use your local library and they can get a copy from Boston Spa or indeed visit it if in the area at http://www.bl.uk/aboutus/quickinfo/loc/bsp/index.html
Replacement Copies
If you need to replace a lost book that is out of publication, the British Library can provide you with a photocopy. The first 50 pages is charged at £17.35 and 13p per page thereafter. Standard despatch is available on this service copyright fees may also be payable
So you can buy a photocopy of the book from the British Library at 17.35 + 16.38 + 9.00 copyright Fee (Total: £42.73)
 
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better off just sticking a suitably sized offering just in front of em at the right time cos when theyre hungry they,ll munch most bait:)
 
jon, liver has most amino profiles in it mate and they like it, it minces & mixes up like liquid too, strange stuff liver, i prefer using pigs liver as it a bit stronger than lamb or beef liver, dirt cheap too;) dont boil the bait though
 
John
I like liver profile (Palatant and Powder) pastes for barbel but never thought about using the stuff raw
Would it make a good paste mixed with something JB Frost and Flood?
 
Barbel Feed

better off just sticking a suitably sized offering just in front of em at the right time cos when theyre hungry they,ll munch most bait:)

I agree with John. I think that sometimes we over complicate the essential food requirements of fish. After all, we don't tuck into a pile of sprouts searching for vitamins or minerals. I don't think that a fish's requirements are much different to ours. Protein, some form of carbohydrate (or fat) and traces of vitamins etc. I believe that a lot of packets of green and red powders labelled amino acids etc. are of questionable value and if added to bait would be far in excess of any requirments. Good old lunchy, maggots and worms will provide much of the protein and some of the carbohydrate requirements. I suspect that many of the powders and potions on tackle shop shelves are designed to catch anglers. The base mix of boilies will have the carbohydrate aspect, pellets should have protein, so I can see why these baits work. I believe that a lot of tosh is written about baits in a quasi- scientific manner. There are basics and that's it.
 
There is whole bunch of stuff out there (mainly in science journals). Accessible fefree ones include:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...h?q=barbel+diet+requirements&t=all&sort=0&g=s
for this:
Condition, growth and food conversion in barbel, Barbus barbus (L.) juveniles under different temperature/diet combinations
Kamiński, RafaŁ / Kamler, Ewa / Wolnicki, Jacek / Sikorska, Justyna / WaŁowski, Jakub ,
Journal of Thermal Biology, 35 (8), p.422, Dec 2010

Darryl, I dare say you're right but on searching through many books at Oxford Bodleian library it surprised me (well sort of) just how little science based literature is actually out there on Barbus barbus.
Its far easier to find info on an Asian strain of barbel than it ever is our indigenous one.

Which is a bit like learning about king carp and interpreting the data collated to be rellevant for crucians, or Landrace pigs and Gloucester Old Spot pigs, completely different nutrional needs, same family group but not the same genus, all with unique individual requirements.
 
Evening all,

I have been making my own boilies/pastes for a year now & would like them to have a specific nutrient profile closer to barbel essential needs. Even so, trying to find reliable data is tricky.

Can anyone point me in the general direction of the daily nutrients (amino acids, fatty acids, vitamins & minerals) that barbel need to sustain good health. I appreciate that across any given season/year, composition/concentration/health will influence their needs.

Many thanks in advance

Jon

Jon, i'll try hard not to overcomplicate this, because it is so easy to do.
Firstly trying to uncomplicate every thing - what are you looking for ? a food or a bait ?
Using the best anology - aquaculturists require to feed their fish a food which will enable their fish to grow and flourish, by supplying them with - ALL of their nutrinional needs, BECAUSE THESE FISH ARE NOT GOING TO GET IT ANYWHERE ELSE. They are totaly reliant on their keepers to give them what they need.
Achieving dependancy on a food is something in a natural flowing enviroment such as a river that will never happen, and somthing from a point of view of attracting and catching fish - Barbel we don't need to do.
Were you able to replicate in one food the nutritional requirements of a Barbel, you will have achieved no more than they can readily consume within their natual enviroment, aside from the convenience factor of all their needs in one package - and there may be obvious advantages to that.

I have read, and have backed up with my own experiences that within that natural background are components that are extremly attractive to fish - and Barbel, and if educated to their constant presence in an area, in high levels within the food - NOT QUANTITY OF FOOD - become recognisable to the fish as a source of nutrition that cannot be obtained from their natural diet.
In my opinion there must be recognisable signals from these components that when detected by a fish - Barbel - mean they recognise a good source of food.
The components i'm speaking of a Protiens and fats, both of which make up the essential ingredients of any living creatures food.
High concentrations of either will i believe - in fact certain be highly attractive to fish.
The high fat content of lunceon meat, is what i believe makes this such an attractive bait, but because like all animals the fats that are not used for energy requirements will be stored, and may cause health issues in the fish.
There are though essential fats, - Fatty acids as you put them which are used for other purposes, which come under the general heading of Lipid fats,
getting complicated now !
One of the primary functions of lipid fats is to enable the transportation of Amino acids derived from the protein profile, around the body of the fish.
Proteins or more correctly the amino acids they contain are used for growth, and muscle production amonst other requirements, and are not stored and excess will be excreted.
Proteins in regular amounts are essential for the well being of the fish, and what i believe has caused evolution to enable fish to recognise their presence.
Proteins are highly complicated structures which vary in their amino acid profile.
These attractive components ( proteins and Fats ) will never in themselves deliver all the nutrional reqirements of any fish, but we are back to the fact that fish will never in a natural enviroment become dependant of an anglers bait, they will get plenty of the other essentials they need from natural food sources.
Duplicating the exact nutritional requirements of a Barbel would be very difficult it think, though i think by giving the a broad mixture of ingredients within the bait would tick most of the boxes.
Would you end up with a blindingly good bait though ? given that you are giving them nothing which they can't find in their natural food.

A bait is just that - a bait intendfed to attract a fish so we can catch it either by instantly doing so by smell or taste, or by recognition over time that a food we deliver to them has a definate feel good factor to eating it.

In a nutshell Jon, i'm saying give them what they want, - what they find most attractive not neccesarily what they need for a complete nutritional profile, they'll get plenty of that eating natural food.
What would you fancy an 8oz Sirloin or a plate of beans ? :D
 
Barbels daily dietary requirements

Thank you to all that replied to my info request especially Darryl & Ian.

I made this info request to see if there was a single acclaimed reference to that of a barbels daily dietary requirements. As highlighted by Colin, compared to other species I agree that academic information on the barbus barbus is pretty scant - the disjointed info is just about out there but it takes a lot of time, good searching techniques. I was a study-ant for quite a while & amongst the few things I can do, one is research...

Through no longer being able to buy the boilies I used to use & just wanting to use the better ingredients used to manufacture pellet I finally resigned myself into looking into making my own baits. I used to make my own baits in the late 80s but that was many moons ago. I thought to myself, I can make a dogs dinner for 10, so why can't I simply bung half a dozen bait powders together into something tasty... I was making a tasty ground bait but not the hook bait.

For initial bait formulation (if you can call it that) I knew that I would not be using a throwing stick, the bait was only going to be in the water for on average greater than 30 mins, occasionally longer & that the bait would be hand rolled/made into chops rather than with the trays. These 3 points - bait hardness, spherical quality & roll-ability is what some get hung up on whereas mine was to make a paste that would bind if slightly boiled.

The next part was the bait solubility & leakage with desired hook longevity.

I have used approx 20 different bait ingredients across the year, some expensive & others relatively cheap. I have been a fan in the past of using water dampened paste & its been interesting seeing its nature & hook longevity changes when binding with other liquids/powders. Also, I have learnt more about blending ingredients to achieve a specific physical consistency.

Over the last two weeks the fishing front has slowed down so took the opportunity to look at the ingredient profiles that I have been playing with (general composition, individual nutrient profiles (amino acid, fatty acid, mineral & vitamins), solubility, digestibility). I tabulated this information so to make comparing them a little easier. I was curious to see what the nutrient difference was say between predigested fishmeal & a standard fishmeal other than one is twice the price of the other - solubility, digestibility & the bioavailable nutrient state. Other interesting trends are the general profiles obtained & compared from certain products ie milk, meat, fish, egg, vegetable, nut, seed, pulses, etc. Looking across these food types & their analysis gives the chance to lower the cost of the bait but still achieve a balanced bait. Sort the consistency & leakage (with the addition of flavour, liquid additives, oils) & a wealth of cheap bait is at the finger tips. Just read about this without a mindset of memorising relative detail before.

I have been comparing my bait to that of a carps requirements (several different scientific papers all slightly different data) but would like to compare this to a barbels needs hence this thread - the quest for a definitive profile to save me some time comparing one paper against another - you know there is never such a thing & an investment of time is always needed!

Agreed Ian on many points. Whether we can make a blindingly good bait is one thing but to make it better is a given. It's the flexibility I like having the extra few bits & bobs in the garage that can be dipped into.

Cheers, Jon

PS I read the Nature of Barbel, though concise it never really got to expand on anything of substance. I felt there was more missing than adding to what I knew already. The internet has far more in depth info. John Walker - I like your thoughts on the addition of liquidised liver. Both powdered meat & yeast products were on my next shopping list.
 
Darryl, i mix it with anything handy that will bind it mate, a touch of anchovy and steam em until right texture happens, been using liver in various forms for over 40 years for carp and tench and for past 12 or so years for barbel, the fish love it.
Hello Albert yes i am still kicking mate;):) aint had much fishing time this past 2 years though mate, But things may change, if they dont then i am semi retiring in a couple of years from now;)
 
hi john.i try to get in 3or 4hrs a week if poss.i have just put the rods in the car.just a minute.who are these 2men in the white coats knocking at the door?albert
 
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