Alleged polluters in High Court

[Paul Bullinger]

I see that the alleged polluters of the River Wye are to appear in the High Court.
There is no doubt that the Wye is polluted, but how to prove who caused it is the tricky bit.
Be interesting to see how this plays out.
Any views of possibilities of a successful conviction??

 

[Alec Hague]

To me, the crux is that when chicken manure is disposed of, by the chicken farmers, what is the forcesble use. Seems indisputable it is for fertilisation. As such it's travels, pollutant capabilities must have been. known and effectively obvious. I expect them to use the gun manufacturers defence, they don't pull the trigger but there is a clear provable consequence.

 

[Paul Bullinger]

There will, undoubtedly, be a strong defence mounted by council for the chicken farms. However, as you say, they (the chicken farmers) must have known that millions of chickens produce millions of tons of waste, which when spread on fields will ALWAYS find its way into water courses.
If you take a step back and look at the ingredients of commercial chicken feed, you'll find that it contains (amongst other things) a liberal dose of antibiotics. Not all absorbed by the bird, the consequence of which, you've guessed it, it ends up in the Wye, or Lugg, or Usk.
Not good.

 

[Alec Hague]

The foreseeable nuisance issue is I suspect easy to establish, but it's the link to the actual polution which is happening. Legal dream. Lots of learned, honest experts contradicting each other. Sorry I retired from the law 40 years ago now. Ha.

 

[Alec Hague]

The foreseeable nuisance issue is I suspect easy to establish, but it's the link to the actual polution which is happening. Legal dream. Lots of learned, honest experts contradicting each other. Sorry I retired from the law 40 years ago now. Ha.

 

[Joe Winstanley]

There will, undoubtedly, be a strong defence mounted by council for the chicken farms. However, as you say, they (the chicken farmers) must have known that millions of chickens produce millions of tons of waste, which when spread on fields will ALWAYS find its way into water courses.

It really isn't inevitable that the nutrients from poultry manure will end up in watercourses. Applied to the right land, at the right time and in the correct manner then the losses to the environment should be neglible. But we are taking about spring applications to arable crops or spring grass reseeds in soils which are low in phosphate and where the supplied nitrogen will be readily taken up by the crop. And on soils which are not prone to erosion or soil wash.

The trouble is, there really isn't much, if any, of this land in the Wye Catchment.

Poultry units like these need to be in the arable east, not the livestock dominated west.

Avara should have done their homework and taken a strategic view. I genuinely think they didn't have a clue on the practical implications. Companies like this are run by clueless bean-counters who have no knowledge of agronomy or land management. To my mind Natural Resources Wales and the Environment Agency are arguably more culpable as they should have seen this issue coming right from the start and put a stop to it. As Roy Keane would say "that's their job".

 

[Paul Bullinger]

Whilst I agree with your sentiments Joe I am, as my lovely wife is always pointing out, a very cynical guy!
Yes, IF chicken manure is applied to the right land, AND at the right time, AND in the right areas etc etc the effect on the environment would be lessened (not eradicated though) Sadly, I'm not convinced that "best farming practise" is always carried out.
However what's driving this problem is Joe Public's insatiable appetite for fast grown chickens to fill their bellies via fast-food/chicken shop diners. If it weren't for this popular source of food, maybe we wouldn't need millions of chickens being reared in huge factory sheds and being fed on dubious ingredients.
I accept that cheap food is the goal for most governments, but to provide this, compromises have to be made.
In this case those compromises are pollution and, further down the line, human health.
Still the upside is you can have a huge cardboard bucket overflowing with deepfried chicken drumsticks for less than a pint of lager!
I told you I was cynical.

 

[Joe Winstanley]

Whilst I agree with your sentiments Joe I am, as my lovely wife is always pointing out, a very cynical guy!
Yes, IF chicken manure is applied to the right land, AND at the right time, AND in the right areas etc etc the effect on the environment would be lessened (not eradicated though) Sadly, I'm not convinced that "best farming practise" is always carried out.
However what's driving this problem is Joe Public's insatiable appetite for fast grown chickens to fill their bellies via fast-food/chicken shop diners. If it weren't for this popular source of food, maybe we wouldn't need millions of chickens being reared in huge factory sheds and being fed on dubious ingredients.
I accept that cheap food is the goal for most governments, but to provide this, compromises have to be made.
In this case those compromises are pollution and, further down the line, human health.
Still the upside is you can have a huge cardboard bucket overflowing with deepfried chicken drumsticks for less than a pint of lager!
I told you I was cynical.

I agree that factory farming is a problem, for all sort of issues. Not least the massive issue with inefficient conversion of grain into meat and the huge area of land taken up by growing proteins for animal feed both here in the UK and in parts of the world like the Amazon.

My point wasn't to advocate for intensive poultry farming, just to point out that poultry manures if used properly can be very efficient and relatively benign. On most soils Phosphate can only find it's way into surface waters via soil erosion or run-off which on the right land (almost none of which is in the Wye catchment) can largely be prevented through good management.

 

[Alec Hague]

Whilst I agree with your sentiments Joe I am, as my lovely wife is always pointing out, a very cynical guy!
Yes, IF chicken manure is applied to the right land, AND at the right time, AND in the right areas etc etc the effect on the environment would be lessened (not eradicated though) Sadly, I'm not convinced that "best farming practise" is always carried out.
However what's driving this problem is Joe Public's insatiable appetite for fast grown chickens to fill their bellies via fast-food/chicken shop diners. If it weren't for this popular source of food, maybe we wouldn't need millions of chickens being reared in huge factory sheds and being fed on dubious ingredients.
I accept that cheap food is the goal for most governments, but to provide this, compromises have to be made.
In this case those compromises are pollution and, further down the line, human health.
Still the upside is you can have a huge cardboard bucket overflowing with deepfried chicken drumsticks for less than a pint of lager!
I told you I was cynical.

My grandchildren simply cannot believe me when I say, as a lorry drivers son, in the 50's we had a big beef joint every Sunday which lasted in various ways tol tuesday at least. Chicken, capon usually, was for the 4 holidays a year. Can I say on line, nowadays I am pig sick of chicken!