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Anyone got a few Bob spare?

So its just the fishing rights and not the land? In my experience of serving on a fishing club committee, such arrangements and fraught with danger, as when there’s a fall out with the actual landowner, things can quickly go tits up!
 
Neil Blood said:
So its just the fishing rights and not the land? In my experience of serving on a fishing club committee, such arrangements and fraught with danger, as when there’s a fall out with the actual landowner, things can quickly go tits up!
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Like if the landowner refuses access to the river over his/her land - unless there are covenants / wayleaves to grant such access. Anyway, the Wye is largely dead, or dying, so unless they wipe out chicken farming don't have sleepless nights chaps.
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I actually know of 2 cases where adjoining farm land was sold and the new farmers were then shocked to find club members fishing on their land. They tried to kick club members off (get off my land), including one farmer who threatened to crush a members car with his tractor 🚜 The bottom line is when they bought the farms, their solicitors hadn't done the proper land reg searches and failed to spot that the land being sold, didn't include both the fishing and sporting rights!

Both cases turned ugly and due to potential legal battle costs, eventually the fishing rights were sold back to the new land owner. One of these involved a stretch of the Wye.

I’m also aware of other current deteriorating relationships on a couple of river lengths, where farmers don't own the fishing rights and its steadily getting messy.
 
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Lots of examples of Fishing Rights severed from Freehold properties and the majority work very well. As has been said, decent informed solicitors/surveyors on all sides are vital. Boundary challenges are the normal cause of expensive disputes. The Deed must have the Access Rights included/noted within it and the Freehold Title Entry at HM Land Registry must also include the details of the Deed and Access Rights. Those who want to take shortcuts do so at their peril.
 
Kevin Steele said:
Like if the landowner refuses access to the river over his/her land - unless there are covenants / wayleaves to grant such access. Anyway, the Wye is largely dead, or dying, so unless they wipe out chicken farming don't have sleepless nights chaps.
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Access to this beat is via a public footpath referred to as "Heart Attack Hill" because it is a steep climb at the end of the day. The footpath follows the river bank.
 
Interesting topic regarding riparian fishing rights. Neil M. covered most of the bases of a subject that we’ve both chatted to each other about on the bank.
Many folk don’t realise that fishing rights can be separate freeholds ,.. and as has been mentioned, many solicitors fail to do their job by informing prospective new landowners that their purchase doesn’t include fishing rights.
I’ve experienced it a few times as sect of a club but have generally found that a free permit and some site meetings smooth the new neighbours disappointment.
I’ve also experienced an adjacent landowner advertising his land which included (my clubs) fishing rights.
A quick check at Land Registry is all it takes,… but it’s still a pain when a club has to pay its solicitor to protect what is legally theirs.
Fishing rights freehold should come with a legal easement that determines access,…. almost equivalent to having a public footpath crossing your land. Normally it’s 6-12feet from bank,.. enough for two adults to pass.
There’s umpteen pitfalls including fencing ( too close to bank) ,… blocked access,… fallen trees,… livestock etc.
The key is to make sure your freehold access is legally protected and to make a real effort to get on with your adjacent landowner imho.
 
I can think of a number of many spate rivers in my neck of the woods where the fluvial geomorphology is so dynamic that ownership of thin strips of land adjacent to the river bank could be problematic. The River Dane between Congleton and Holmes Chapel being a good example. Lots of active meandering, rapid channel change, erosion and deposition and cut-offs, the course of the river is constantly on the move. Not so much of an issue if you own a larger block of land, but one could own a thin strip (say 10-20m wide) that 40 years later was either no longer adjacent to the river - or eroded away and somewhere in the Irish sea. Just owning the fishing rights with an appropriate access easement would be better in the long-term.
 
Joe Winstanley said:
I can think of a number of many spate rivers in my neck of the woods where the fluvial geomorphology is so dynamic that ownership of thin strips of land adjacent to the river bank could be problematic. The River Dane between Congleton and Holmes Chapel being a good example. Lots of active meandering, rapid channel change, erosion and deposition and cut-offs, the course of the river is constantly on the move. Not so much of an issue if you own a larger block of land, but one could own a thin strip (say 10-20m wide) that 40 years later was either no longer adjacent to the river - or eroded away and somewhere in the Irish sea. Just owning the fishing rights with an appropriate access easement would be better in the long-term.
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I think the key is to have guaranteed rights of way of x amount width from the bank regardless of river height or erosion.
The problem often arises when a stock fence has become a barrier due to erosion and it impedes on one’s legal right of riverbank access. Fishing rights freehold wouldn’t give a club or syndicate ownership of any land,… just reasonable access and protected rights to participate in their legal activities.
 
Last year I had an altercation with a woman who owned some land where my fishing association had the fishing rights. I don't know what the legal arrangements are between her and the club, but she was allowing her three very large dogs loose in shallow water and effectively ruining the fishing for at least an hour (small beat, very few alternative swims).

She went ballistic when I explained this to her and suggested she might keep the dogs out of the water, ("How dare I tell her what she can and can't do on her own land?"... I've left out the expletives). My argument was that if I rented out a house, I wouldn't expect to go around and have a barbecue in, or walk my dogs through, the garden of my tenant. That didn't help either, so I left and I won't be going back... it was a cr4ppy little beat anyway. 😁

I'd be interested to know what the general arrangement is when an angling club has rights on certain waters (rivers) - is it usually as a tenant, or as outright owner of those rights? Or is it different, case by case?
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Kevin Steele said:
Last year I had an altercation with a woman who owned some land where my fishing association had the fishing rights. I don't know what the legal arrangements are between her and the club, but she was allowing her three very large dogs loose in shallow water and effectively ruining the fishing for at least an hour (small beat, very few alternative swims).

She went ballistic when I explained this to her and suggested she might keep the dogs out of the water, ("How dare I tell her what she can and can't do on her own land?"... I've left out the expletives). My argument was that if I rented out a house, I wouldn't expect to go around and have a barbecue in, or walk my dogs through, the garden of my tenant. That didn't help either, so I left and I won't be going back... it was a cr4ppy little beat anyway. 😁

I'd be interested to know what the general arrangement is when an angling club has rights on certain waters (rivers) - is it usually as a tenant, or as outright owner of those rights? Or is it different, case by case?
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Different case by case. Can be short term licences, long term leases or ownership. The latter two generally being preferable.

In the case of a lease, contents of each lease agreement are generally negotiated case by case. Although a certain % of the agreement may include relatively standard terms. The only time they may not be negotiated is if the lease is in some way inherited, in which case someone else did the negotiations in the past.

In a tenancy the landowner may reserve access rights for certain activities, say picking up birds from the water on a shoot day etc. Although this happens, the tenancy still infers a certain level of uninterrupted enjoyment for the tenant. Sometimes fishing rights are dressed up as licences, in which case there is less exclusivity in the arrangement. But to confuse things more, sometimes a landowner will try to label something a licence (for his own perceived benefit) but in reality the contents of the agreement and how it is used on the ground are more akin to a lease, in which case in court it is likely to be determined still a lease.

A lot of that is hypothetical and I think like others have said above the important thing is good neighbourly relations. A little goodwill goes a long way. Also, just because Lord Peters and his land agent were involved in letting a little beck out for a modest fee, it doesn’t mean Lady Peters wants some common muck fishing in her ‘garden’. In that case I would imagine it doesn’t matter at all what it is any agreement, but it’s how well you managed to charm her before suggesting she’d ruined your fishing, which sounds like not very much 😄
 
Christian Tyroll said:
In that case I would imagine it doesn’t matter at all what it is any agreement, but it’s how well you managed to charm her before suggesting she’d ruined your fishing, which sounds like not very much 😄
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Well, I tried to be civil, but you should have heard her language... she wasn't charming and she was certainly no 'Lady'. :eek: (And this was in Herefordshire, but she sounded like a character from Eastenders.)
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"But to confuse things more, sometimes a landowner will try to label something a licence (for his own perceived benefit) but in reality the contents of the agreement and how it is used on the ground are more akin to a lease, in which case in court it is likely to be determined still a lease."

In some cases the arrangement is so ancient, pre WWII or earlier, no documents seem to exist, but angling has continued throughout. The land in question is not registered at HMLR (that became compulsory 30 years ago). There are other legal routes that offer some protection but that requires the services of good solicitor/surveyor with the inevitable cost.
 
Worth a mention - all Agreements (Title Deeds or Leases) should be in the name of Trustees on behalf of the club. Trustees are generally appointed partly based on their experience and longevity. Such Agreements and Titles could probably benefit from a quick review - are they still with us?!
 
Neil Maidment said:
Worth a mention - all Agreements (Title Deeds or Leases) should be in the name of Trustees on behalf of the club. Trustees are generally appointed partly based on their experience and longevity. Such Agreements and Titles could probably benefit from a quick review - are they still with us?!
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Thank you Neil. That is a very good point. I was Secretary of a club that had Trustees pass away or resign and no action was taken on the basis that "we will deal with that when the time comes". One of a number of reasons I am no longer Secretary.
 
Kevin Steele said:
Well, I tried to be civil, but you should have heard her language... she wasn't charming and she was certainly no 'Lady'. :eek: (And this was in Herefordshire, but she sounded like a character from Eastenders.)
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My response was definitely a tad stereotypical. Sounds like the reality is even more humorous, second hand anyway 😂
 
Neil Maidment said:
"But to confuse things more, sometimes a landowner will try to label something a licence (for his own perceived benefit) but in reality the contents of the agreement and how it is used on the ground are more akin to a lease, in which case in court it is likely to be determined still a lease."

In some cases the arrangement is so ancient, pre WWII or earlier, no documents seem to exist, but angling has continued throughout. The land in question is not registered at HMLR (that became compulsory 30 years ago). There are other legal routes that offer some protection but that requires the services of good solicitor/surveyor with the inevitable cost.
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Interesting stuff Neil. Have you had unwritten agreements transcend different owners or are they in situations where it is the same family? Given the land is still not registered I imagine it’s never been sold?

I guess there’s two ways to look at it, maybe spending the money and getting it formalised whilst there’s a good relationship, on the other hand it might end up doing more harm than good.
 
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