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Hook for Snag Fishing
- Thread starter Steve Walker
- Start date
Steve Walker
Senior Member
Thanks to all the members who have replied with constructive replies and suggestions for different hook patterns,they are very much appreciated.If there was a thanks button I would have used it but we don't appear to have one on this forum.
Sadly a few members decided to go completely of topic and vent their spleen about this particular style of fishing.The title of this thread is ''hook for snag fishing'',if it was titled ''snag fishing,for or against'' then there might be some justification for a rant.
I thought the idea of the forum was to exchange views and opinions in a relaxed,friendly manner,not hijack a thread,go off topic and make personal attacks.I have been accused of not caring about barbel welfare which is quite frankly preposterous and classic forum trolling behaviour.
This style of posting will deter any new members from participating on the forum and can only be counter productive.
Sadly a few members decided to go completely of topic and vent their spleen about this particular style of fishing.The title of this thread is ''hook for snag fishing'',if it was titled ''snag fishing,for or against'' then there might be some justification for a rant.
I thought the idea of the forum was to exchange views and opinions in a relaxed,friendly manner,not hijack a thread,go off topic and make personal attacks.I have been accused of not caring about barbel welfare which is quite frankly preposterous and classic forum trolling behaviour.
This style of posting will deter any new members from participating on the forum and can only be counter productive.
David Gauntlett
Senior Member
Whilst agreeing with some of the posts on this thread advising caution when using 'hook and hold' tactics, I do think there is an element of jumping on the band wagon to criticise this fella in a typical forum 'blood letting' frenzy of blame 
In my opinion there are one or two points to consider before 'casting the first stone' as it were. For instance, how many of the swims we all fish day in and day out have a snag of some sort, somewhere within reach of a powerful fish? My guess is probably more than half in many rivers.
And what do we all do if/when a fish eventually heads in that direction? I will tell you what we do, we put the brakes on that fish, stop it dead in it's tracks....or are we all going to deny the excited reminiscing in the pub, along the lines of "I had to put me hand over the spool and hold on for dear life to stop it getting in there".....sound familiar?
Know before you all jump in to give me the inevitable kicking for saying that, I KNOW that what I have just described is different to deliberately fishing to a snag, where hook and hold is essential and inevitable. However, one of those differences is actually in favour of that style of fishing, and because of that is more readily accepted as a legitimate method in carp fishing circles. If done properly, with total lock-up and absolutely no line given to the fish on the take, then that fish has nowhere to go....except away from the snag....and thus to a safe, playable area. The second point is, when fishing locked up, the fish CANNOT gain traction and thus pick up speed in the direction of the snag. It soon realises this and heads off away from the pressure, not harming itself in the process simply because it can't get up a head of steam if it cant tear off....it cannot exert anything like the pressure when it is at a standstill and unable to get up speed...untill it heads away from the snag.............
Conversely, when fishing a more open swim, where the fish HAS gathered full speed and is charging towards a distant snag (the one you hoped and preyed it wouldn't head for) and then requires stopping.....that is when damage is much more likely to be done. The fish now has speed and inertia on it's side, and locking up then is fraught with danger....for the fish.
So, in my opinion, for what that's worth....things are NOT as black and white as it first appears. There IS validity in fishing locked up, but here I would agree with the previous posters....ONLY if it is done correctly. Otherwise it is, as said, a dangerous practice and should be discouraged. Mind you...some would say that the same could be said of fishing in general
Oh...and while I am discussing carp style practices....there is another post running at the moment about fishing 'clipped up', where a number of members are saying they don't do it because of the risk involved if a large fish goes off on a long run
PLEASE be aware that the correct method is to mark the line once you have arrived at the required distance, either in line with the tip ring, line clip on the reel, or wherever you deem suitable (using pole elastic tied on, electrical tape stuck on and trimmed, etc, etc.) The line is then placed in the clip on the reel, and the cast is made. The line is removed from the line clip immediately the lead/feeder/whatever is on the bottom, and then the line adjusted as required and the rod placed in the rest. Obviously, as you start the retrieve, the marker is re-located and the line placed in the clip again using your marker to guide you, then the retrieve is continued, before casting out once more. To leave the line clipped up while fishing is, as rightly feared, a disaster waiting to happen....it is a total no-no.
I know the strange snobbery rampant in all sectors of our sport requires that we all denigrate 'the other lot' and their chosen prey mercilessly, with barbel anglers labelling carp 'pond pigs', 'mud slugs', you name it....and those who fish for them being roundly looked down upon. However, that is a shame, because there are many things in carp AND match fishing that barbel fishers would do well to take note of and learn to do properly....and vice versa of course
Cheers, Dave.
In my opinion there are one or two points to consider before 'casting the first stone' as it were. For instance, how many of the swims we all fish day in and day out have a snag of some sort, somewhere within reach of a powerful fish? My guess is probably more than half in many rivers.
And what do we all do if/when a fish eventually heads in that direction? I will tell you what we do, we put the brakes on that fish, stop it dead in it's tracks....or are we all going to deny the excited reminiscing in the pub, along the lines of "I had to put me hand over the spool and hold on for dear life to stop it getting in there".....sound familiar?
Know before you all jump in to give me the inevitable kicking for saying that, I KNOW that what I have just described is different to deliberately fishing to a snag, where hook and hold is essential and inevitable. However, one of those differences is actually in favour of that style of fishing, and because of that is more readily accepted as a legitimate method in carp fishing circles. If done properly, with total lock-up and absolutely no line given to the fish on the take, then that fish has nowhere to go....except away from the snag....and thus to a safe, playable area. The second point is, when fishing locked up, the fish CANNOT gain traction and thus pick up speed in the direction of the snag. It soon realises this and heads off away from the pressure, not harming itself in the process simply because it can't get up a head of steam if it cant tear off....it cannot exert anything like the pressure when it is at a standstill and unable to get up speed...untill it heads away from the snag.............
Conversely, when fishing a more open swim, where the fish HAS gathered full speed and is charging towards a distant snag (the one you hoped and preyed it wouldn't head for
) and then requires stopping.....that is when damage is much more likely to be done. The fish now has speed and inertia on it's side, and locking up then is fraught with danger....for the fish.So, in my opinion, for what that's worth....things are NOT as black and white as it first appears. There IS validity in fishing locked up, but here I would agree with the previous posters....ONLY if it is done correctly. Otherwise it is, as said, a dangerous practice and should be discouraged. Mind you...some would say that the same could be said of fishing in general
Oh...and while I am discussing carp style practices....there is another post running at the moment about fishing 'clipped up', where a number of members are saying they don't do it because of the risk involved if a large fish goes off on a long run
PLEASE be aware that the correct method is to mark the line once you have arrived at the required distance, either in line with the tip ring, line clip on the reel, or wherever you deem suitable (using pole elastic tied on, electrical tape stuck on and trimmed, etc, etc.) The line is then placed in the clip on the reel, and the cast is made. The line is removed from the line clip immediately the lead/feeder/whatever is on the bottom, and then the line adjusted as required and the rod placed in the rest. Obviously, as you start the retrieve, the marker is re-located and the line placed in the clip again using your marker to guide you, then the retrieve is continued, before casting out once more. To leave the line clipped up while fishing is, as rightly feared, a disaster waiting to happen....it is a total no-no.
I know the strange snobbery rampant in all sectors of our sport requires that we all denigrate 'the other lot' and their chosen prey mercilessly, with barbel anglers labelling carp 'pond pigs', 'mud slugs', you name it....and those who fish for them being roundly looked down upon. However, that is a shame, because there are many things in carp AND match fishing that barbel fishers would do well to take note of and learn to do properly....and vice versa of course
Cheers, Dave.
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Chris Thomson
Senior Member
Best post on this thread!
Alex Gowney
Senior Member & Supporter
I have to agree with a lot of Dave's thread. When the Cherwell was a viable barbel river much of the fishing was hit and hold because if you wanted to fish where many of the barbel were there were snags everywhere. This is not to say it was necessary to cast into the barbels sanctuary, it was just the nature of the river in some of the very localised barbel holding areas.
Steve, as to your question, I never had a problem with Drennan Continentals or Au Lion D'or hooks.
Steve, as to your question, I never had a problem with Drennan Continentals or Au Lion D'or hooks.
Steve Williams
Senior Member
Anyone ever see that clip of Trefor West on (I think) Total Fishing, fishing under a bush..... hooks a big Barbel and then doesn't give it an inch...... proper hook and hold.
I've done plenty of fishing 'close in' under willow bushes etc. Personally, with the right gear I don't have a problem, but I do agree with Dave about fishing for them in their 'homes', this can make them a little twitchy, but it really depends on the venue.
Most of my venues were lightly fished ones, so the pressure was never going to tell.
With my moderators hat on, can I ask that we keep it civil and discuss it without the thread degenerating into name calling personal attacks and point scoring.
I don't feel the topic has gone off course, as its all relevant IMO.
Steve
I've done plenty of fishing 'close in' under willow bushes etc. Personally, with the right gear I don't have a problem, but I do agree with Dave about fishing for them in their 'homes', this can make them a little twitchy, but it really depends on the venue.
Most of my venues were lightly fished ones, so the pressure was never going to tell.
With my moderators hat on, can I ask that we keep it civil and discuss it without the thread degenerating into name calling personal attacks and point scoring.
I don't feel the topic has gone off course, as its all relevant IMO.
Steve
Dave Burr
Senior Member
I don't consider my comments a 'rant' or 'forum trolling' - whatever that is To raise this point is wholly within the topic of the thread.
My major concern is for the fish and the actions of fellow anglers. You have to consider your audience and BFW is viewed my many that are new to barbel angling. To give them the appearance that you can poke your bait under a bush and haul them out with all that pressure onto a small hook is, in my humble opinion, wrong as it can encourage bad angling practice.
For example, I have devised a rig that is extremely good at hooking wary chub (and barbel of course) but, as it has double hooked some fish (the hook passing through the lip and hooking again on the other side), I would not dream of publicising it until such time as it is perfected and the potential for damage has been negated. The hook hold itself causes little problem but it takes great care to extract the hook with minimal damage to the fish.
I would hate for less caring or less particular anglers to cause damage through my actions. In exactly the same way, I would never advocate 'snag' fishing as I find it unsporting and unnecessary.
We all apply extreme pressure to the fish at times and, as Steve recalls, Tref took a double and hauled it straight out but that would have been on a Drennan Continental sized 4 or 2 not on a size 10 which could have had a very different result.
To raise this point is wholly within the topic of the thread.My major concern is for the fish and the actions of fellow anglers. You have to consider your audience and BFW is viewed my many that are new to barbel angling. To give them the appearance that you can poke your bait under a bush and haul them out with all that pressure onto a small hook is, in my humble opinion, wrong as it can encourage bad angling practice.
For example, I have devised a rig that is extremely good at hooking wary chub (and barbel of course) but, as it has double hooked some fish (the hook passing through the lip and hooking again on the other side), I would not dream of publicising it until such time as it is perfected and the potential for damage has been negated. The hook hold itself causes little problem but it takes great care to extract the hook with minimal damage to the fish.
I would hate for less caring or less particular anglers to cause damage through my actions. In exactly the same way, I would never advocate 'snag' fishing as I find it unsporting and unnecessary.
We all apply extreme pressure to the fish at times and, as Steve recalls, Tref took a double and hauled it straight out but that would have been on a Drennan Continental sized 4 or 2 not on a size 10 which could have had a very different result.
David Gauntlett
Senior Member
Hi Dave,
Your point about small hooks is very valid fella...I couldn't agree more. However, what is this 'not sporting' bit all about? I have a friend who refuses to fish for barbel or carp with line over 6/7lb, no matter what the circumstances, on the grounds that it is 'not sporting' to do so It seems you have to give the fish a better than 50/50 chance of snapping you up before it is viewed as 'sporting' All very fine I am sure, but I get fed up with removing other peoples hooks from the lips of carp or barbel after these chaps have had their 'sporting' outings
I do agree that 'hook and hold' fishing is not for everyone, in fact I rarely fish that way myself. However, to label it as 'unsporting' merely because it is not something you particularly enjoy yourself is a little unfair on those who do enjoy that style of fishing.
You are absolutely right about the worrying side of encouraging others to use methods that may cause harm to fish when practised by the inexperienced....but bare in mind that logically that means that we should not encourage beginners to start fishing at all Perhaps the obvious answer may be that we should educate the uninitiated, not try to hide something on the grounds it may be dangerous....or 'unsporting'...........
Finally, I look forward to finding out how you intend to 'perfect' your new method/rig which causes damage by double hooking.....without the possibility of causing more damage in the process.....or is that an 'unsporting' question
Please don't take offence at my comments here Dave, it is all a little tongue in cheek, and most certainly not intended to offend you or anyone else
Cheers, Dave.
Your point about small hooks is very valid fella...I couldn't agree more. However, what is this 'not sporting' bit all about? I have a friend who refuses to fish for barbel or carp with line over 6/7lb, no matter what the circumstances, on the grounds that it is 'not sporting' to do so
It seems you have to give the fish a better than 50/50 chance of snapping you up before it is viewed as 'sporting' All very fine I am sure, but I get fed up with removing other peoples hooks from the lips of carp or barbel after these chaps have had their 'sporting' outings I do agree that 'hook and hold' fishing is not for everyone, in fact I rarely fish that way myself. However, to label it as 'unsporting' merely because it is not something you particularly enjoy yourself is a little unfair on those who do enjoy that style of fishing.
You are absolutely right about the worrying side of encouraging others to use methods that may cause harm to fish when practised by the inexperienced....but bare in mind that logically that means that we should not encourage beginners to start fishing at all
Perhaps the obvious answer may be that we should educate the uninitiated, not try to hide something on the grounds it may be dangerous....or 'unsporting'...........Finally, I look forward to finding out how you intend to 'perfect' your new method/rig which causes damage by double hooking.....without the possibility of causing more damage in the process.....or is that an 'unsporting' question
Please don't take offence at my comments here Dave, it is all a little tongue in cheek, and most certainly not intended to offend you or anyone else
Cheers, Dave.
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Dave Burr
Senior Member
Dave
I consider chasing fish in their only point of sanctuary as unsporting. I know that many want to catch come what may but I have my own limits and I know that if you spook the hell out of them there they will be much harder to catch elsewhere thus ruining it for the following anglers = Unsporting.
I do not set ridiculous rules about line strength etc such as your mate does, I fish with balanced tackle that, so far this season, is my 1.6 test Harrison 11' Avon with 10lb line.
As I previously stated, giving anglers half the information can encourage bad practice. There are many horror stories from carp lakes of 'anglers' using multiple rods in snag swims and leaving them as they go for a walk! But I am all for educating anglers and have given many anglers advice and tuition as well as writing articles about methods etc.
As for the rig I mentioned, I don't think that I am causing excessive damage. A double hooked fish just takes more care to unhook and that's the point, the inexperienced or downright uncaring will not take that extra care.
I consider chasing fish in their only point of sanctuary as unsporting. I know that many want to catch come what may but I have my own limits and I know that if you spook the hell out of them there they will be much harder to catch elsewhere thus ruining it for the following anglers = Unsporting.
I do not set ridiculous rules about line strength etc such as your mate does, I fish with balanced tackle that, so far this season, is my 1.6 test Harrison 11' Avon with 10lb line.
As I previously stated, giving anglers half the information can encourage bad practice. There are many horror stories from carp lakes of 'anglers' using multiple rods in snag swims and leaving them as they go for a walk! But I am all for educating anglers and have given many anglers advice and tuition as well as writing articles about methods etc.
As for the rig I mentioned, I don't think that I am causing excessive damage. A double hooked fish just takes more care to unhook and that's the point, the inexperienced or downright uncaring will not take that extra care.
Graham Tremble
Senior Member
Hi Guys,
Great post Mr Gauntlet, you made your points elequently, sympathetically and without offence . Other less able posters please note, if you disagree with a point of view ....discuss don't rant, it simply puts new members contributing to the site,
Regards,
Graham.
Great post Mr Gauntlet, you made your points elequently, sympathetically and without offence . Other less able posters please note, if you disagree with a point of view ....discuss don't rant, it simply puts new members contributing to the site,
Regards,
Graham.
David Gauntlett
Senior Member
Spot on Dave...I can't argue with a single word of that. Well said fella.
Mind you, the advice and tuition you mention is not without it's pitfalls...there are some on here who label others as 'know alls' or 'patronising' for daring to offer advice
.......you can't win mate Cheers, Dave.
Stephen Whyte
Senior Member
Been following this thread with interest. Can't say i have ever fished hit and hold as such, but could someone explain the larger hooks size 2+4 as opposed to say strong size 8 for example ? Also, must agree with Graham Tremble, Dave Gauntlett has made some excellent points and some good points from others too.
Stephen
Stephen
Adrian Williams
No Longer a Member
Small hooks will tear through flesh easier than large ones for the same force applied, it's simple mechanics.
Jon Frisby
Senior Member & Supporter
These are the dogs danglies...... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370497999...eName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649 .......... twice as good as an ESP D7 IMO
Chris Turnbull
Senior Member
In my experience, in the long run, all that hook and hold snag-tree tactics manage to achieve is to make the barbel increasingly spooky making it increasingly difficult to draw them out to settle on the bait. The main element to catching barbel is to get them feeding confidently and, in doing that, you can draw them a long way out from their hiding holes. Also, I'd suggest that a less beefy rod of say 1.12 tc. will more effectively soak up the struggles of a hooked fish and put less stress on the line and hook-hold than a stiff brute stick.
I have seen the damage hook and hold fishing can result in, where one particularly big fish ended up with one of its pectoral fins cut clean off as a result of making it into the snags. Personally I wouldn't do it as I think it isn't necessary.
I have seen the damage hook and hold fishing can result in, where one particularly big fish ended up with one of its pectoral fins cut clean off as a result of making it into the snags. Personally I wouldn't do it as I think it isn't necessary.
Steve Walker
Senior Member
This is the rig I have finally decided to use and I guarantee it will stop any barbel in it's tracks.It is a basic but very effective running rig.
Main line is 15lbs suffix synergy,hooklength is 15lbs PB products jellywire coated braid with a couple of inches stripped back above the hook which is a size 8 Korda kurv and matches up nicely with a 15mm boilie,it is an extremely strong hook.I also flatten down the barb with some long nosed pliers as it is a bit on the big side.
The swivel knots are both 5 turn grinners and the hook is tied with a standard knotless knot whipped the correct way down the shank(very important).As you can see I have only whipped about 1/3 of the way down the hook shank but it works well creating an effective hooking rig.
I have recently caught a season's best using the rig below and will post a pic.when I have resized it,although it's not the best pic I have ever done.
Main line is 15lbs suffix synergy,hooklength is 15lbs PB products jellywire coated braid with a couple of inches stripped back above the hook which is a size 8 Korda kurv and matches up nicely with a 15mm boilie,it is an extremely strong hook.I also flatten down the barb with some long nosed pliers as it is a bit on the big side.
The swivel knots are both 5 turn grinners and the hook is tied with a standard knotless knot whipped the correct way down the shank(very important).As you can see I have only whipped about 1/3 of the way down the hook shank but it works well creating an effective hooking rig.
I have recently caught a season's best using the rig below and will post a pic.when I have resized it,although it's not the best pic I have ever done.
Tom Marshall
Senior Member
So you use a running rig, is there a reason you use a hooklink of the same breaking strain as your mainline?
Steve Walker
Senior Member
Hi Tom,
I think I know what you are getting at-that the hooklink should always break before the main line.
At first glance it may seem that this terminal tackle is not balanced but although the main line is marketed as 15 lbs bs it actually breaks at higher than that.Synergy is 0.35mm diameter and if you look at the tackle box line testing results(synergy is not included) it is clear that lines of similar diameter break at higher than 15lbs.
The Jellywire hooklength claimed bs is 15lbs and in a straight pull test with a grinner tied to a swivel and a knotless knot tied to a hook I get it to break at that.
When I have cast too far,got snagged up and had to and pull for a break it is the knotless knot which goes first at the hook.
Mick Harris
No Longer a Member
Perfect rig mr walker,running rigs all the way[when i do get out to fish which is rare these days]see no point in bolt/fixed/or semi fixed whatsoever.
Jelly wire is nice stuff too.
P
mh
Jelly wire is nice stuff too.
P
mh
